SUBJECTS: Julian Assange; the Australian economy; the Passenger Movement Charge
A podcast and mp3 download of this interview is available on the ABC website.
Steve Austin:
Well, it is my very great pleasure to welcome to the airwaves, Inside Canberra guests - what we will be the case for the rest of this year - two federal parliamentarians, names I am sure you know, but fresh and new to this particular segment.
First of all for the ALP, Bernie Ripoll, Member for Oxley and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer. Bernie, good morning and welcome.
Bernie Ripoll:
Thanks Steve.
Austin:
How are you coping in the ABC Tardis in Canberra?
Ripoll:
It is tight and I am here with Steven Ciobo, so we are having a bit of fun.
Austin:
Steven Ciobo, Member for Moncrieff. Steven, thank you and welcome as well.
Steven Ciobo:
Good morning Steve, and, of course, Bernie and I just want to congratulate you on your new line up.
Austin:
Boom, boom. Well done.
Ciobo:
Good choice we think.
Austin:
Good. Well gentlemen, let's ask you first of all, the news today is about Julian Assange, Australian citizen, has claimed that he is not been given the support from the country of his birth that he deserves, and as a result that he is seeking asylum in the Embassy of Ecuador. First of all, Bernie Ripoll, has the Government given him everything that they can in his legal battle?
Ripoll:
Absolutely Steve, in fact, Julian Assange has received not only full consular support, but he has probably received, comparably, more support than any other Australian in terms of assistance and, you know, everything that we can possibly do as a country for a citizen overseas. We need to remember there is due process and everybody is responsible for their actions, even Julian Assange. And we'll continue to give him full support. Of course, there is no evidence at this stage that Mr Assange's UK court proceedings have not followed any due process either so, it really is up to him what he decides to do next and his legal team. Certainly the case from Australia is that he has been given more than full support.
Austin:
Steven Ciobo?
Ciobo:
Well, I think Steve the issue here is, from a Coalition perspective, is that we would question the Government's approach in terms of the seeming disparity between the way in which the Government has intervened in certain matters and sort of taken a hands off approach with Julian Assange and there is no doubt he has received some consular support, that's a given, it's not like, and I certainly agree with Bernie on that. But you know, contrast for example the fact that you have Bob Carr, the Foreign Minister, now over in Libya dealing with the detainment of the Australian ICC lawyer over there. You saw the Prime Minister publicly intervene in the case of the fourteen year old Australian boy in Bali. Actually phoning, very publicly that Australian citizen and, you know, contrast that with Nicola Roxon's comments that Julian Assange had fled Sweden. Contrast that with the Prime Minister's comments that Julian Assange's acts were illegal. Neither of those statements have been retracted. So we just think that there does appear to be some duplicity, or rather than duplicity, there has been a difference in the approach that has been adopted by the Australian Government with respect to those various cases.
Austin:
Bernie Ripoll, is the Government using a different stand when it comes to a citizen like Julian Assange as opposed to the ICC lawyer who is from Queensland here as you know?
Ripoll:
Absolutely not. They are completely different cases and the case for Miss Taylor is that she is not part of the formal legal process and that we are giving her the full support of any consular assistance that we can and in terms of Senator Bob Carr as Foreign Minister directly being involved, I think that is an appropriate action in the case, which is not a legal case, in Libya and we are doing everything we can to support her through that particular process that she is going through over there. I think what people need to understand is that Julian Assange is using every possible legal avenue that he has and he ought to be able to do that and Australia is conscious of that and we are responding in an appropriate way.
Austin:
Alright gentlemen, thank you very much for that. I might move on because - although I should ask you, if you wanted to seek asylum in a country in the world, which country would it be Bernie?
Ripoll:
Do you want me to go first? For me it would be North Queensland.
Austin:
Come on, seriously, which country would it be?
Ripoll:
I don't know. North Queensland sounds pretty good. I like it, it's warm, the fishing is good.
Austin:
What it be Cuba or something? Venezuela?
Ripoll:
No, no, no. For me the obvious one would be the South of France. I think the food is good, the weather is nice and it is quite like Australia in many ways.
Austin:
Steven Ciobo. What country would it be if you were seeking asylum?
Ciobo:
Well, Bernie and I were commenting about this before we came on air and I indicated to Bernie that Bora Bora would, I think, be my chosen country but, you know, coming from the Gold Coast, it is hard to beat but I think by definition if you are seeking extradition elsewhere it has got to be somewhere else, so Bora Bora I think would be top of the list, although I have never set foot in the place so I don't know if it is actually as good as I think it is.
Austin:
Sixteen minutes past nine. Inside Canberra with Bernie Ripoll. Bernie is the Federal member for Oxley and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer. Steven Ciobo is the Federal Member for Moncrieff for the LNP.
Gentlemen, let me ask you a quick one. Is the glass half full or half empty? Steven Ciobo, do you want to go first?
Ciobo:
Well, look, this is a fascinating issue Steve. The reality is that there is this ephemeral thing called confidence right? And Australians are not feeling confident in their government, and for good reason. I mean, that are not feeling confident about the global economy because of what they are seeing in the headlines. But more than that, the reason why I think there is a general reticence on the part of Australians, the reason why Australians aren't feeling like the glass is half full and are feeling like the glass is half empty comes down to a couple of basic things. And that is that we have a very unstable Government. We've got a Prime Minister who is now hanging by a thread in her own party room, speculation now running rife that Julia Gillard is about to be executed next week by Kevin Rudd's forces. We've got a Government that has blown out Australia's position from being $70 billion in net assets to now being $145 billion in net debt. They are borrowing over $100 million a day. The reality is, Steve, that in this environment they are looking for better leadership. The biggest single compounding factor in all of this is, in my view, is, of course, the carbon tax which kicks off on July the 1st. Australians instinctively know that it is going to massively push up the cost of living and for all of these reasons, coupled with the global economic tumult, they are just not confident about the future.
Austin:
Bernie Ripoll?
Ripoll:
I couldn't differ more. I actually think, look, the glass is always half full. I am an optimist. But more importantly, you have that analogy...
Ciobo:
You have to be to be a member of the Labor Party, you have to be an optimist.
Ripoll:
We are optimists, and it's better than being a pessimist. The question is not so much whether the glass is half full or empty, but is it are we refilling it? Are we replenishing the glass? The reality is that...
Austin:
Well Bernie, that was the Reserve Bank Governor's question. That was very much the question. That was the Reserve Bank definition.
Ripoll:
Yes, absolutely. And, look, the reality is we are. The reality is we have a strong economy. We've got something to be proud of in this country by any comparison in the world. We're doing a good job on that. Interest rates are low, but we've got interest rates which is important for people who actually need that flexibility. We've got inflation which is contained. We've got an economy that's growing and that's refilling the glass. I think that's important. Now we talk about debt, now let's get serious. The rest of the world is on a 160 per cent debt to GDP ratio, we're on below ten.
Ciobo:
That is a ridiculous statement to make.
Ripoll:
Well, it might be ridiculous, but it's still true.
Ciobo:
No, it's not.
Ripoll:
It's still true. We're on less than ten per cent. You know, in mortgage terms, if it was like borrowing money to buy a house, we are well within our means and that is why it is reflected in the Australian economy. Five per cent unemployment, considered as full employment. We can always do better and in terms of a stable Government, well, it is a difficult parliament, but it is pretty stable. You know, and out of 300 pieces of legislation that we have put forward we've got 300 pieces up. Government is governing and we are nearly two years in...
Austin:
Sorry Bernie, can we just get that figure again. Out of 300 pieces of legislation you've put forward, you've got 300 pieces of legislation through the House?
Ripoll:
Pretty much, yes. That's right.
(inaudible)
Austin:
Well, doesn't that undermine the argument that Tony Abbott is just a blocker and just Dr No?
Ripoll:
No, he is a blocker and he is Dr No because he says no to everything. No matter what it is, even things that are in the national interest. The reality is that (inaudible)
Austin:
But you got them all up.
Ripoll:
Well we have because we are Government and we are governing the country and we are making the appropriate changes to legislation and law as is necessary and continue to run a strong and good economy and that's what we have achieved. Now they can keep on saying, you know, that it's unstable but that's just not the reflective reality. The reality is we are governing. And we will continue to govern right through until the end of this Government's term and then we will go to where those decisions about this Government ought to be made and that's at an election in a proper democratic process. Not when Dr No wants us gone or not.
Austin:
It's Bernie Ripoll, Federal member for Oxley and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer. Also for Inside Canberra, Steven Ciobo, Federal Member for Moncrieff for the Liberal Party. My name is Steve Austin. It is 20 minutes past nine. Both of my guests for Inside Canberra are in our Parliament House studios in Canberra. When Parliament is not sitting they will be in the studio with us here in Brisvegas.
Julia Gillard, gentlemen, let me move the focus to Julia Gillard herself. Bernie Ripoll, first of all, has the Federal Government scrapped the, what is it called, the passenger movement charge, or the airline departure tax or not. Has it scrapped it?
Ripoll:
No. There is a charge and in fact the charge will increase by $8. It is not going to be indexed, it will be a flat $8, so there is a departure charge. And it is just reflective of the necessary changes that need to be made. It's a very small amount.
Austin:
Sorry, just clarify that for me. Because it was a lot more than $8 a couple of days ago. What's happened? It was going to be indexed... From the first of July it was going to be indexed for inflation.
(inaudible)
Ripoll:
Well, it's not now. The reality is it's a flat $8 and it's the exact same increase that the Howard Government made when it changed the charge in 2001.
Austin:
So the Federal Government has changed its position Bernie in the last couple of days?
Ripoll:
That's right. Yes, that's right. It is a flat $8. It's the same that the Howard Government increased the charge by in 2001. There hasn't been a change since 2008. So this is, look, it's a very small amount. I mean, people can argue over it, it increases costs, but in the overall costs of people departing this country to go over for an overseas holiday or international tourists coming here, it's a tiny percentage of air travel fares and on the broader prospect of an international holiday.
Austin:
Well, let me interrupt you. Before I go to you Steve Ciobo, let me just play you this. I asked Julia Gillard on this very thing in this studio a week ago. This is what she told me. I asked her about the passenger movement charge and the concerns of the tourism industry and whether they were being taxed unfairly and this is what she said.
PM:
Well, first and foremost, we are not taxing Australian tourism through the increases in the Passenger Movement Charge. People will pay that increased Passenger Movement Charge if they are going to an airport to fly out of the country to take their money overseas and go and spend it in some overseas tourism destination, you know, anywhere round the world that people might want to go to-
Austin:
Their advertisement says for the first time the Government is proposing that the PMC automatically increase every single year.
PM:
But who pays it, is the question I'm posing to you Steve. And I'm explaining who pays it, you pay it if you're going to the airport today to fly off to Bali or Vanuatu or Paris or, you know, Las Vegas, wherever you want to take yourself to, you will pay that Passenger Movement Charge.
You do not pay it if you are coming from Melbourne to holiday in Queensland because you want to get some great Queensland sunshine. It is for people leaving our nation to go overseas where they will spend their money overseas.
Out of that increased Passenger Movement Charge, paid for by people going overseas, we will actually devote a new source of funds to helping our domestic tourism industry and particularly to helping the tourism industry develop its reach into China and other emerging markets.
Austin:
Bernie Ripoll, was Julia Gillard being misleading on this program last week?
Ripoll:
No, Absolutely not. I think everything she said is exactly right. (inaudible)
Austin:
Well then, why have you changed it?
Ripoll:
Well, it's been a week between those statements. Nothing has changed. What has changed in the week, is that we have just now decided not to index it. So I think that that is a good thing. It is reflective of our discussions and consultations with the industry and I think it is an appropriate thing to do. It's what governments ought it do. So I don't see that it's an issue in itself. I mean the $8, if you want to debate that as an issue, fine, but there is a charge. It is the same charge that was put forward by the Howard Government in 2001. I think we also need to take a broader look here and that is that if we actually want to support the tourism industry in Australia, we've got to start targeting those markets where we are going to get large numbers of tourists and Julia Gillard actually raised the issue of Chinese inbound tourists. We expect that over the next decade there will be 100 million Chinese visiting as tourists and spending their money here and if we can broaden our taxation in terms of that departure tax and they pay it, that's a good thing for Australia.
Austin:
Steven Ciobo?
Ciobo:
Steve, anyone involved in the tourism industry, directly or indirectly, must just be reeling at the absolute rubbish that they just heard, both from Bernie and from the Prime Minister. Let's be clear about this, tourism is one of the biggest employers and biggest drivers of the Queensland economy. What this Labor Government has done is increase the passenger movement charge up to $55 and an increase in this budget of $8, so it's now $55 and contrary to the spin that the Prime Minister was putting on, it's not a tax that is applied to Australians traveling overseas, it's a tax that applies to every single tourist coming into the country and leaving the country again, which, by the way, all international tourists do. And so what's actually taking place Steve, is that you've had $600 million of additional tourism taxes thrust on to the industry in the last Federal Budget, this on top of nearly $1 billion of additional tourism taxes that this Government put in place in 2008. So, in total, since 2008, since the election of the Gillard Labor Government and the Rudd Labor Government, we've seen nearly $1.5 billion of new tourism taxes put on an industry that is already struggling massively. I mean this is an industry that has got to contend with Australia being an expensive destination; this is an industry that has got to contend with the fact that we have a high Australian dollar. And these things are already making Australia uncompetitive. Now in the face of all of this, the Labor party says, here you go, you can have $1.5 billion of extra tourism taxes and then the Prime Minister doesn't even have the strength or courage to stand up and actually say, well, this is, yes, an additional tax that we are putting on all tourists because we need to do something to try and improve our budget bottom line. Instead, she tries to spin it as if it is some way going to be good for domestic tourism. That's not the case. It's a massive new tax. It's a tax on an industry that can least afford it. It's a tax on a Queensland industry that needs to be helped at this time, not actually levied with additional taxes. So, I think everybody in the tourism industry is justifiably very angry and, make no mistake, the only reason why the Government removed the indexation - a measure that would cost $156 million dollars over four years is because the Coalition said we will not support the indexation of the passenger movement charge every single year from this year because it is going to strangle the tourism industry beyond redemption.
Ripoll:
Steve, if I can just make clear, because people listening to that might take a particular view which might not be an accurate one, the fact is that the Howard Government increased the charge, so it's not a new tax, it's the same tax.
Ciobo:
Bernie, I'm sorry this is completely misleading the situation.
Ripoll:
We didn't invent the tax.
(inaudible)
Ciobo:
What you're neglecting to mention is that under your Government you have reduced funding for the tourism industry in real terms. Whereas the former Howard Government increased massively tourism support in terms of marketing campaigns, funding for domestic and international tourism at an unprecedented rate. So, make no mistake, you are not increasing tourism spending in real terms you've cut it. You increased the passenger movement charge by a much greater percentage over the base since you were elected in 2007.
Ripoll:
We've now increased it, not created a new tax. Because it's a significant difference when you say a new tax would mean it was not there in the first place. (inaudible)
Austin:
Bernie, but it does look like it that the Government has changed the rate at which it was taxing in the last 24 hours after the tourism industry had to run full-page advertisements in the newspapers last week, in other words, you didn't consult them, they didn't like it, they pressured you and you folded.
Ripoll:
Look, great outcome. Great outcome. Absolutely. There ought to be more of it. There ought to be more of it that when you put something forward, and you do go and talk to people, if you need to change your position, you do.
(inaudible)
Ciobo:
I look forward to you welcoming the backdown on the carbon tax issue too Bernie.
Ripoll:
I don't think so chief. Steve, I don't think so. Look, the reality is, the tax has been there for a substantial amount of time, was increased by the Howard Government, hasn't changed since 2008, (inaudible) and we're changing it this year and we are not going to index it as was originally proposed. That's just the reality today. That's fine. I'm satisfied with that and on top of that we are actually taking some of the money from that increase to create an Asian marketing fund and promote Australian tourism, particularly in Asia and particularly for the 100 million plus Chinese tourists that we are expecting over the next decade and that will make a substantial difference to the Australian economy and Australian tourism.
Austin:
Well, we'll let the listeners determine their own view on that gentlemen. I have to wrap it up. Thank you very much. I look forward to speaking with you next week. Quick question for you Steven Ciobo, we've had a number of calls to the station saying they think I am mispronouncing your surname. Would you like to say it correctly for me if I need to be corrected please?
Ciobo:
It's of Italian derivation so the c i is pronounced as a c h like they say ciao, so you just say Ciobo.
Austin:
Steve Ciobo, not Ciobo or Ciobo as I was saying.
Ciobo:
Look, I get lots of different combinations and permutations Steve, so don't worry about it. Don't let it keep you up at night.
Austin:
Ciobo
Ripoll:
Steve, you're doing a good job of my name, but if people are struggling with it, Smith will do.
Austin:
Steve Ciobo, Member for Moncrieff for the Liberals, thank you very much.
Ciobo:
Thank you.
Austin:
And Bernie Ripoll, Member for Oxley for the ALP. Bernie, thank you very much.
Ripoll:
Thanks very much Steve.
Austin:
Inside Canberra will return next Wednesday.