Patricia Karvelas:
Michael Sukkar is the Assistant Treasurer and Minister for Housing and my guest. Welcome.
Minister Sukkar:
Hi, Patricia. Great to be with you.
Patricia Karvelas:
I’ll get to today’s announcement on the submarine shortly but I want to start on today’s job figures. Australia’s unemployment rate fell 0.1 of a per cent to 4.5 per cent in August, the reverse of what many had feared. How confident are you that we have avoided a rise in unemployment?
Minister Sukkar:
Patricia obviously the headline data there is very clear around an unemployment rate at its lowest level since 2008. But what we also saw – and you’ve no doubt seen as well, Patricia – is a reduction in the participation rate and hours worked reduced as well. So that’s a function of, obviously lockdowns, particularly here in Victoria and of course in New South Wales. The unemployment figures over a number of months have firstly shown the underlying strength in the Australian economy, the way in which we’ve handled the economic consequences of the pandemic, the significant fiscal support we’ve given businesses to hang onto employees and to continue, where possible, to operate. Obviously there’s devil in the detail and we did see a reduction in participation and hours worked but the underlying strength in the economy, I think all Australians can see, is strong and the economic plan that’s been put in place in these very difficult times, is holding us in very good stead particularly when you compare us to other nations.
Patricia Karvelas:
146,000 jobs were lost according to the ABS and there was a large fall in the participation rate. Can we really take any comfort from these figures given if you look at the actual detail, people just gave up looking for work?
Minister Sukkar:
Well as I was just saying to you, Patricia, that is right. There are aspects to the detail of these figures that you need to look at above the headline rate although if you look over successive months, the headline rate has shown an underlying strength in the economy. I don’t think any Australian would be surprised to see that hours worked dropped and participation has dropped, in light of lockdowns and very, very harsh and difficult lockdowns throughout really the whole eastern seaboard from New South Wales, ACT and Victoria. So I don’t think it’s surprising but what has surprised in the upside is the headline unemployment rate being at its lowest levels since 2008 I think gives us all an indication of the underlying strength in the Australian economy and our ability to come out on the other side of lockdowns and the pandemic in reasonably good shape. Certainly much better shape than most other comparable economies and that’s really because of the significant fiscal support and other measures that we’ve put in place throughout the pandemic to support small businesses and to support Australians through what is a very difficult time.
Patricia Karvelas:
On the nuclear powered submarine deal announced as part of the new AUKUS partnership today, how much will it cost the government to break the contract for that French built variety?
Minister Sukkar:
I don’t have that detail, Patricia and no doubt those sorts of details will be determined over coming weeks and months. I think what we can say is we’re going to, and I think it’s been accepted by virtually every commentator I’ve seen and from all sides of politics, that this momentous decision today by the Prime Minister and President Biden and Prime Minister Johnson, is going to mean Australia has a far superior defence capability at the end. That I think is what most Australians will look at, that’ll be the yardstick that most Australians will compare us to. I think there’s no doubt that we will end up – through AUKUS and through this first step of AUKUS – with the nuclear‑powered submarines, a far better defence capability than we would otherwise. In the end that’s the job of every government, to make decisions that are in the ultimate long term interest. There will be a cost to that decision but I think the cost will mean that we are in a much better position from a defence capability perspective.
Patricia Karvelas:
Yeah but it’s still a huge waste of taxpayers’ money isn’t it? I mean is this really value for money?
Minister Sukkar:
Well I disagree, Patricia. Obviously the environment is very different. The access to the technology that the US is providing us has only been provided by the US in one other case and that was to the United Kingdom in 1958. We are now getting access to that same technology. It’s going to underpin our capability in the Australian Navy into the future. I think there’s no doubt we end up with a far superior defence capability and that is in the end the decision that has to be taken particularly given the environment in the Indo‑Pacific that we now see and what we, I think, are going to see in future decades.
Patricia Karvelas:
You’re a Victorian MP. What do you make of the slight easing of restrictions once we reach the 70 per cent first dose target tomorrow?
Minister Sukkar:
I, with all Victorians, welcome easing of restrictions. I can tell you there were small celebrations going on in my house when playgrounds were re‑opened. We were still a bit perplexed as to why they were closed to start with but anyway we of course celebrated when they were open. So like all Victorians, we welcome it and encourage the State Government to look at as many opportunities as they can to make life a little bit easier for Victorians as our vaccination rates increase and where they can, be a little bit more ambitious that is obviously in a way that is safe from a health perspective.
Patricia Karvelas:
Do you think they haven’t been ambitious enough so far?
Minister Sukkar:
I think they should be as ambitious as they possibly can, Patricia. I commiserate with Australians – whether they’re in New South Wales, whether they’re in the ACT or southern Queensland, in fact all Australians – who have faced any lockdown restrictions. I think it’s not too parochial of me as a Victorian to say we’ve really copped the brunt of it – more than 220 days – and I think there’s great fatigue out there in the Victorian community. I think there are a lot of people that I see or I speak to through my office, Patricia, who say to me they’re doing okay and then you scratch a little bit under the surface and they’re perhaps not doing as well as they project or even as they consciously believe themselves. That’s why I think the State Government needs to be as ambitious as they possible can on easing restrictions. I welcome there announcement and I just say be as ambitious as is possible within the context of what is safe because I think Victorians have done it pretty tough and I think it’s worn a lot of us down pretty hard.
Patricia Karvelas:
The changes include being permitted to leave home for outdoor social interaction and four hours allowed outside so in your view, that’s probably not ambitious enough, right?
Minister Sukkar:
Patricia, I was just saying to you…interrupted.
Patricia Karvelas:
I’m talking about ambition. I’m trying to get the vibe of what you’re trying to tell me here.
Minister Sukkar:
I know, you’re trying to unpack it. I think Victorians are very tired, they’re very worn down. Again, without harping, when you look at restrictions like the playground ban – it didn’t make much sense, it made life, I think, unduly difficult. In that context I would just encourage the Victorian Government to look at the whole suite of restrictions and where, like with the playground ban – they quite quickly reversed that, they should just I think should be as ambitious as they can to try and give Victorians as much freedom as possible. While a lot of Australians have done it tough, Patricia, I don’t think anyone has done it as tough as we have. I think Victorians have taken it on the chin and had a stiff upper lip, but I think there’s a lot of Victorians who are getting to the end of their tether, quite understandably.
Patricia Karvelas:
Should school definitely go back in term four?
Minister Sukkar:
Look I support that. Obviously I’m not privy to a range of the advice that obviously the state ministers and the State Government is privy to given that they run our school systems. I think it’s crucially important that students get back to school. It’s heartbreaking to see what students have gone through. Not to mention the stress and the strain on parents who are overseeing home learning and the difficulties that that’s caused for families. I think again, Victorians dutifully did what they had to do when they were called on by the State Government to do that but students shouldn’t be out of school for a day longer than is necessary. Looking in from where I am, they should absolutely be back at school.
Patricia Karvelas:
Staying on COVID. We’ve seen temporary mobile accommodation sent to Wilcannia in New South Wales because of overcrowding in homes. Does this show that the government needs to do more to provide ongoing solutions? To me it just demonstrates that there’s a really significant problem that’s already there.
Minister Sukkar:
We have seen some pretty remarkable things occurring as a result of the pandemic, Patricia, as you know, particularly in a lot of regional areas and quite remote parts of Australia that have seen influxes of population. Areas where not a great deal of new housing supply was put in place because, in some cases, for many, many years – indeed decades – population increases hadn’t been prevalent. Now they are grappling with those difficulties so there are some pretty peculiar aspects of the pandemic but I don’t disagree with your basic point that we have a housing supply issue throughout our country. We’ve got state governments, territory governments and local governments who control the amount of new supply of housing. I’m sympathetic to the difficulties with running a planning system but at the same time we need to ensure that the supply of new housing meets the demand and that the supply of new housing along the housing spectrum meets that demand. That’s all the way from private home ownership through to social and public housing.
Patricia Karvelas:
Just finally, should your colleague, Christian Porter, reveal who was behind the blind trust or return the money?
Minister Sukkar:
Patria, I think the basic point is all ministers are required to meet the ministerial code. I’ve got no doubt that Christian will do that – he’ll meet the code. I know the Prime Minister has asked the code to be reviewed in that context. I think anything further than that will just be gratuitous on my behalf. I think that Christian has…interrupted.
Patricia Karvelas:
Do you understand that this looks terrible in the community, to receive money like this and not know where it comes from?
Minister Sukkar:
Well Patricia I think the campaign run by the ABC has been pretty terrible too, to be quite frank. I think it’s been very unfair. The ABC has sought to brand somebody as guilty. I think Christian has suffered at the hands of, I think, some very unprincipled aspects of the media. I’m not going to…interrupted.
Patricia Karvelas:
Okay we’re talking about the money that he has received. He’s a Minister of the Crown receiving money, right, a cool million bucks, which is a big deal. Can we just not acknowledge that? It’s a really big deal. A lot of people never see that kind of money, Minister. He receives it and we don’t know where it comes from. How is that okay?
Minister Sukkar:
Correct, Patricia and as the ABC legal costs were borne by the Australian taxpayers, many hundreds of thousands as well that were borne by Australian taxpayers…interrupted.
Patricia Karvelas:
But even on your logic, we know where that came from. On your logic, we know.
Minister Sukkar:
Patricia, I’m saying to you that Christian, I think, has been dealt with in a very unprincipled way. He’s got to abide by the ministerial standards as do all ministers. I’m confident he will, the PM has sought a review into it. That will be the ultimate arbiter of these arrangements and there’s not much more I can add to that other than I have a great deal of sympathy for what Christian has been put through by some very unprincipled journalism, in my view.
Patricia Karvelas:
Okay well you might say that but people can go and look at the facts.
We’ve run out of time. I hope you have a lovely picnic with your outdoor social engagements this weekend.
Minister Sukkar:
We will be doing that for sure, Patricia and you too.
Patricia Karvelas:
Oh I just remembered actually, I do want to ask you this. I just nearly forgot. It’s important though. The police stopping the public transport for people getting to that anti‑lockdown rally on Saturday. Do you think that’s overreach or is it fair enough?
Minister Sukkar:
Patricia, it’s a hard one. I was very critical of the Black Lives Matter protests at the beginning of the pandemic and I’m critical of all protests at this time. I think it’s a very extraordinary move. I don’t know what the advice was from Victoria Police to the State Government. It seems to be infringing on the rights of many other Victorians, just law abiding Victorians who need to use public transport for whatever reason. In the absence of knowing exactly what sort of evidence the Victoria Police has got or the threats that they are thinking exists and the advice to the State Government, it’s hard for me to be too gratuitous but I never thought I’d see a day, Patricia, where our public transport system was shut down to stop a protest. I must admit I never thought I’d see that day.
Patricia Karvelas:
Yes, there’s a lot of days I never thought I’d see, I’ve got to say. Michael Sukkar, thanks for joining us.
Minister Sukkar:
Thanks Patricia.