GREG JENNETT:
Well, Canberra MP Andrew Leigh is a Treasury portfolio minister carrying responsibilities for competition and charities. In years gone by he was an ardent supporter of removing tax concessions on investment properties. We covered the latest supermarket pricing survey funded by the government as well as negative gearing when Andrew Leigh joined us here earlier.
Andrew Leigh, thanks for joining us once again on Afternoon Briefing. Now you’re out talking today about the supermarket price survey that’s been returned by CHOICE. It again confirms that Aldi comes out somewhat significantly cheaper on a regular basket of goods compared to Woolworths and Coles.
While interesting, this data doesn’t seem to be changing pricing behaviour. The government funds it, but what’s its value if it doesn’t drive change in pricing by the big 2?
ANDREW LEIGH:
Well the value, Greg, is ensuring people know where to get the best deal, and you know you can walk down the road, and you know how much you’re going to save.
We’re also seeing some shifts from the previous price monitoring report that we founded CHOICE to do. That one said that with specials Woolworths outperformed Coles, now we’ve got Coles outperforming Woolworths.
We want to see that price competition, but we also are putting information into the hands of shoppers so they can get the best deal at the checkout at a time when people are feeling that cost‑of‑living pressure.
JENNETT:
So you’ve been encouraging what they call split‑basket shopping, that is going to multiple stores to fill your grocery orders. That would have a significant cost on time and transport and the like, wouldn’t it? Why are customers better advised to do that?
LEIGH:
Well, if people have the time then split‑basket shopping can save money, but we want to make sure that the supermarkets are offering the very best deal to Australians. That’s why we’ve got the ACCC doing their deep dive into the supermarket competition. We’ve seen the ACCC this week bringing action against the major supermarkets for what they allege is breaches of the law. For part of that period, the supermarkets will face higher penalties because Labor increased penalties for anti‑competitive conduct after coming to office.
JENNETT:
How do we customers won’t be worse off if penalties flowing from this ACCC action this week are large?
LEIGH:
Well, you can’t be scared about taking on the big end of town simply because of a threat that they might pass impacts on to consumers. You need to ensure that firms are doing the right thing and putting those appropriate penalties in place.
JENNETT:
Since you’re issuing, you know, consumer advice, I suppose, we had the Prime Minister heap scorn on Coles and Woolies this week. He damned them as not acting in the Australian spirit. Would you encourage consumers to boycott those 2 stores?
LEIGH:
No, I wouldn’t. So I think it’s appropriate that people shop around, get the very best deal. We do need to bear in mind when we face calls for consumer boycotts, like the one we saw from Peter Dutton around Australia Day, that Woolworths is Australia’s biggest private‑sector employer.
We want these firms to do the right thing: the right thing by their customers, the right thing by their workers, and the right thing by their suppliers, Greg, which is why we released the Mandatory Food and Grocery Code of Conduct that will put teeth in the relationship governing how the supermarkets deal with farmers.
JENNETT:
Okay. The remainder of your competition agenda, moving on from supermarkets, you describe as bold. You will have noticed there’s only 4 sitting weeks left in the parliament in this calendar year. How much of it will be legislated before the next election?
LEIGH:
Well, we’ve already legislated the increased penalties for anti‑competitive conduct and banned unfair contract terms. We’ve already put in place designated complaints which allow selected consumer and small business organisations to make fast‑track complaints to the ACCC.
JENNETT:
There’s a lot still to go though, isn’t there?
LEIGH:
Absolutely. The biggest merger shake‑up in 50 years, taking into account the fact that we’ve seen a rise in market concentration in Australia, and we expect to have that in the parliament before the end of the year.
And then we’re working on issues like non‑compete clauses which are affecting one in 5 workers, potentially dampening wages and innovation.
JENNETT:
You will move on that in the life of this parliament?
LEIGH:
We’re expecting to move on that in due course. We haven’t finalised how we go forward with that. We do have the national competition policy as well engaging in a really constructive conversation with state and territory Treasurers, like Daniel Mookhey in New South Wales, to make sure that states and the Commonwealth are working together, as we did in the 1990s, where competition reform raised household incomes by $5,000 a household.
JENNETT:
Sure. A lot still to be done, not a lot of time left in this parliament. Let’s move on to negative gearing though, Andrew. We all discover in the last 24 hours that Treasury has been doing some work on some unspecified, you know, possible overhaul of negative gearing. I’m going to suggest there’s never been a stronger advocate for change in this area than yourself in the past. I won’t read the whole back catalogue of quotes, although I have a few here. One is, ‘Negative gearing’s a regressive tax break that goes disproportionately to better off Australians.’ Do you still hold those views?
LEIGH:
Well, Greg, we’ve got a big and ambitious housing agenda, and this isn’t part of it. Our focus is on boosting supply. We’d love it if the Liberals and the Greens would stop blocking and help us start building to meet that target of 1.2 million homes over the next 5 years. That’s our focus.
And when it comes to tax reform, our focus is on the multinational tax changes that we’ve put through and which are ahead of us as we work to get more fairness in the multinational tax system.
JENNETT:
Does that mean the government has no interest in any changes in this area?
LEIGH:
Look, these aren’t part of our plans. I’ve told you our –
JENNETT:
In the present tense, yes. We’re very familiar with that construction, aren’t we, from Stage 3, where it wasn’t a plan until it became a plan? It doesn’t address future changes though, does it?
LEIGH:
Well, Greg, what we’ve got here is public servants working on important policy issues. As a policy wonk, I want public servants not merely implementing what government is doing, but also thinking about how the system can be made better.
JENNETT:
Okay.
LEIGH:
I welcome that intellectual debate within agencies, whether it’s Treasury, Prime Minister and Cabinet, Department of Social Services, or wherever else we find it.
JENNETT:
You are very familiar with the workings of the public service, and yes, the Prime Minister says, like you, he wants a dynamic public service throwing up ideas. So are we right to assume that Treasury are looking at death duties at present?
LEIGH:
I don’t expect that’s the case, Greg.
JENNETT:
Higher GST rate?
LEIGH:
Well, look, you can go through a whole range of things. There is going to be work happening in Treasury at any given time. Treasury has a terrific head in Steven Kennedy, they’re ambitious and thoughtful in terms of how they work, but the government’s policy on housing is very clear, and our policies on housing would benefit from the blockers in the Liberals and the Greens getting out of the way, letting us implement Help to Buy, which is a policy not dissimilar from what the Greens took to the last election, and yet they’re blocking it in the Senate. Remarkable stuff.
JENNETT:
The Prime Minister has set as a test, I suppose, of any further examination of negative gearing how it might affect supply. Just explain to us theoretically at least, if you changed, tightened some of the requirements around negative gearing how that would influence supply.
LEIGH:
Greg, I admire your tenacity on this one, and our focus is indeed on supply. But it’s not through that channel. Our focus on supply is through ensuring that we’re working with states and territories on planning and zoning reform, the Social Housing Accelerator, the Housing Australia Future Fund which will build 30,000 social and affordable homes. The Albanese government’s getting on with this.
JENNETT:
You haven’t renounced your views from 2016 though, have you?
LEIGH:
Oh, look, we obviously took different policies to the 2016 and 2019 election. There’s no secret of that, just as there’s no secret in terms of what we are trying to do now, working constructively with states and territories, engaging with those senators that want to engage.
But I’m so disappointed that the Liberals and the Greens continue to block sensible policies that will make it easier for young Australians to get a foothold on the housing ladder and make it easier for innovative new forms of housing, such as Build to Rent, to be constructed.
JENNETT:
All right. Just a final one, Andrew. I don’t think we’ve had a chance to have you in the studio since there was, you know, much public discussion about Census questions a month or so ago, that is questions around identity and sexual orientation. It kind of went full circle. But looking back on it now, would you have been happy to remain as a minister if the initial recommendation by you to include those questions had been ignored?
LEIGH:
Look, Greg, I’m really happy with where we’ve ended up here. We’re going to have a new topic in the Census on gender and sexual orientation. That will follow what’s been done in other countries like New Zealand. It reflects the careful work of the Australian Bureau of Statistics under the leadership of David Gruen, and it allows us to better count the diverse Australian public. These will be optional questions, they’re only asked of people over 16, and they’ll be carefully tested through the Australian Bureau of Statistics leading up to 2026.
JENNETT:
Was it a bruising encounter for you, that particular policy debate?
LEIGH:
Look, Greg, I don’t talk about these internal discussions. What I’m pleased about is where we ended up for the Australian people. For LGBT+ Australians, I think it’s important to be counted in this way. It’s a measured, sensible update to a topic in the Census which will be carefully tested as we work through and approach the August 2026 Census.
JENNETT:
It certainly did go full circle, and there’s further work to be done on it. Andrew Leigh, we’ll wrap it up there. Thanking you once again.
LEIGH:
Thanks so much, Greg.