LEON DELANEY:
Our local member here for the Federal Seat of Fenner, also happens to be the Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury, and Assistant Minister for Employment, and his name is Dr Andrew Leigh. Good afternoon.
ANDREW LEIGH:
Good afternoon, Leon. Would I be unfair to say that your previous announcement was somewhat a roundabout way of making the point?
DELANEY:
It was a roundabout way of making a point about roundabouts in the city of Canberra, of which some would say there are far too many, but I don't mind the roundabouts, they're okay.
LEIGH:
No, exactly. Particularly the ones with pretty things in the middle.
DELANEY:
Well, that's always nice, but the great thing about roundabouts is they're not traffic lights.
LEIGH:
Exactly.
DELANEY:
So you're not stuck at a red light for a long period of time. If you have to give way to the people on the roundabout, that's fine, it only takes a moment, and then you're on your way. But traffic lights, you could be stuck there for, oh, minutes. It's very frustrating.
LEIGH:
Exactly.
DELANEY:
Very frustrating. The only thing frustrating about roundabouts though, and I'm sure you'll agree, there are two things: one is the people that come screaming along and shoot straight into the roundabout, assuming that everybody's going to give way to them, it's not how it's supposed to work, and the other one is people not indicating left to exit the roundabout, they're still indicating right, which actually suggests they're going to keep going round and round in circles. But that's not what they're going to do.
LEIGH:
Yeah, my 16‑year‑old's learning to drive at the moment. It's funny saying to him, "Look, mate, the rule is that people have to give way to somebody who's already on the roundabout, but because most people think the rule is give way to the right, you've got to behave like that, otherwise you're going to get side‑swiped by a lunatic that's charging through the roundabout from your right."
DELANEY:
Absolutely. The safest policy is no matter what direction you're approaching the roundabout, slow down, see who else is there, assess the situation, don't try screaming through like you've got the after‑burners lit.
But that's not why we're here. You've got a busy schedule this week. You're holding a series of charity town hall meetings. What are they all about?
LEIGH:
Well, this is Australia's biggest charity consultation. We'll be holding our 15th, 16th and 17th meetings with charities, kicking off with one in Canberra on Wednesday in Albert Hall from 10.30 am. All charity leaders are welcome, and this is really just about hearing the views from Australia's charities.
Now one of the things we've sought to do is to reset the relationship with charities to make clear that charities are a valued partner for the Albanese Government, and also to talk about our important reforms in the charity space: the Productivity Commission review into philanthropy, fixing charitable fundraising laws, putting together a blueprint. So we want to get their feedback as we progress some of the work that we're doing.
Our biggest charities are just such a wonderful part of the community. I was out yesterday at Belconnen Model Aero Club's 50th Anniversary, and was struck by the way in which that club generates so much goodwill, and acts as a kind of connector in the community.
DELANEY:
Well, that's the whole point of clubs, isn't it? It's about community spirit, about community connection, and about community service. I suppose those are the big three things, aren't they?
LEIGH:
That's right. So the Belconnen Model Aero Club describe themselves as a men's shed with a flying problem, and they're just doing great work out there in the community. They've got a couple of young neurodiverse kids they've gotten from joblessness into work, and now sent them on to a pathway into employment. Of course they also provide an opportunity for a whole lot of aviators to show off their skills, and what they can do in that field in Mitchell is just remarkable.
DELANEY:
Yeah, fantastic stuff. Now speaking of charities, before we move on to other things, you also have an engagement this week to officially launch the Vinnies Christmas Appeal.
LEIGH:
That's right. Vinnies is a much beloved charity for many Canberrans, and so at 10 o'clock on Wednesday, just before our charity town hall kicks off, I'll be launching the Vinnies Christmas Appeal. I know many Canberrans will have given to Vinnies and many Canberrans will have been helped by Vinnies. They're one of those remarkable charities that does so much good in our community.
DELANEY:
Yes, and they operate a chain of very good opportunity shops where you can get some interesting clothing, there are lots of interesting bargains to be had at the Vinnies stores. So I thoroughly recommend a visit.
LEIGH:
Great place to get your Halloween costume for tomorrow night.
DELANEY:
I didn't think of that, but you're quite right. Yeah, good spot for a Halloween costume.
On Friday last week, there was an all‑day summit run by the Australia Institute, it was called the Revenue Summit 2023. On the list of speakers, your name was at the top. Does that mean you had top billing, or was this an alphabetical list? No, it wasn't alphabetical, no. You must have been the most important speaker. How was that?
LEIGH:
You've got to worry about an event where I end up top of the list, don't you, Leon?
DELANEY:
I do.
LEIGH:
If I'm the best you can do, the event's got some serious problems. No, I'd say it was a good conversation. The Australia Institute is one of the thoughtful think tanks in Australia, and they invited me in to talk about some of the things we're doing in the multinational tax space. We’re reducing some of the debt dodging tricks that multinationals have been using to try and get a leg up over local Canberra firms and Australian businesses.
So I was talking about some of those measures, and of course the transparency measures that you and I have chatted about before as well.
DELANEY:
Now I note also that Mike Keating, former head of the Prime Minister's Department, former head of the Department of Finance as well, had a few things to say about tax reform. He says we should all be paying more tax.
LEIGH:
Mike's an interesting bloke, he had the office next to me when I was a Professor at the Australian National University, so I've got a lot of respect for him. Our focus right now, Leon, as you well know, is on multinational tax reform, making sure we get multinationals to pay their fair share. We get that right, that adds hundreds of millions of dollars to the budget bottom line.
Alongside that, we've been looking at curbing expenditure in unnecessary areas. After the era of carpark rorts and sport rorts and Western Sydney Airport rorts, we need to be very careful with every dollar of taxpayer expenditure.
DELANEY:
What he's called for is a full‑scale revenue review, saying that without some sort of increase to the tax take, we're going to be about $90 billion short over the next decade. How are we going to pay for our, I don't know, our highways and hospitals and our schools and universities, if we're running short on tax money?
LEIGH:
Well, we just delivered the first budget surplus in 15 years while providing cost‑of‑living relief in the areas like childcare and energy bills to Australian households.
Now childcare costs were set to rise 6 per cent in the last quarter, instead they went down 13 per cent, thanks to our childcare measures. So it's about getting those targeted bits of expenditure right while not blowing the budget, as the former government did. Where they just spent all of the revenue upgrades, we've chosen instead to save them, and to deliver that responsible surplus for the first time in a decade and a half.
DELANEY:
Now, obviously you're committed to supporting the government's current policy and spruiking the benefits of the current budget, and the surprise surplus that was achieved through larger‑than‑expected revenues because of more people being in jobs and companies getting bigger profits than anticipated, and I think something to do with the iron ore price that was also very beneficial for the budget bottom line.
But is Dr Keating right in the longer term; do we need to re‑think the way we collect tax to make it more sustainable into the future, and you know, if you can address this not as a politician in the current term of government, but in more of the longer‑term decade and longer big picture thinking.
LEIGH:
Leon, I think ‘spruiking’ makes me sound a bit like somebody who's standing outside a Reject Shop...
DELANEY:
You said it, not me.
LEIGH:
I like to sort of think of this as a conversation where I'm doing my best to persuade you and your listeners! But yes, we do need those long‑term conversations, that's why the Intergenerational Report was brought down, it's why we've got the Employment White Paper, celebrating the fact that unemployment is below 4 per cent, the best employment outcome in many decades.
We've only had unemployment below 4 per cent in 19 months since the late 1970s. 16 of those 19 months have been under this government. So the labour market is working astonishingly well. But the Employment White Paper really was about how to lay the foundation for future prosperity, how we make sure that we're creating the jobs for the future through skilling people up.
DELANEY:
Every time people start talking about the need to reform tax, there's always a discussion about GST, and the suggestion comes forward that it should be perhaps increased in size, it should be perhaps broadened in scope, or perhaps both. That would be very politically difficult, wouldn't it?
LEIGH:
People have their views on that, but we have no plans to change the GST, Leon.
DELANEY:
Well, there you go. Just because you have no plans today doesn't mean it might not be an idea that's considered tomorrow, does it?
LEIGH:
What happens with this is invariably people have spent the money seven different ways, they've compensated people, they've given money to the states, they're spending money on their favourite federal program. A lot of the plans to change the GST don't stack up.
We think that focusing on multinational tax avoidance is a much better use of our energies right now, alongside the changes we've made to the Petroleum Resource Rent Tax, which will ensure that we're going to see some Petroleum Resource Rent Tax paid for some of those west coast gas projects this decade rather than next.
DELANEY:
Yeah, and a little bit closer to the near term horizon, there's ongoing discussion yet again about the so‑called stage 3 income tax cuts legislated by the previous government, and renewed suggestions that perhaps maybe not abolish them, but will you restructure them in some way? Is that something that the sovernment might consider?
LEIGH:
No, it's not. We're not planning to change those stage 3 tax cuts. They're legislated, they'll come in. Our priority again, Leon, is the multinational tax avoidance area where we've not only got a bill before the Parliament right now, but also looking next year at implementing the international agreement that was struck around curtailing multinational profit shifting.
DELANEY:
Andrew, thanks very much for your time today.
LEIGH:
Always a pleasure, Leon, thank you.
DELANEY: And watch out at those roundabouts. Dr Andrew Leigh, the Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury, Assistant Minister for Employment, and of course our local member here in the seat of Fenner.