LEON DELANEY, HOST:
Well, it's the first day today of the brand-new parliament, the 47th Parliament. And of course, it's the first time in about nine years that the Labor members have been sitting on the government benches. One of those lucky souls is the federal Member for Fenner, and now the Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury, Dr Andrew Leigh. Thanks for joining us today. Did you find your way to the right office today?
ANDREW LEIGH, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR COMPETITION, CHARITIES AND TREASURY:
I did indeed, Leon. It's like being the first day back at school, except you’ve got to elect a principal. And so we've been proceeding forwards and backwards to the Senate chamber, and then this afternoon, we'll have the Governor General outlining the government's agenda. But it's enormously exciting to have 35 new members in the House of Representatives, a whole host of fabulous new and dynamic Labor colleagues, and I’m just really enjoying the opportunity to make a positive difference for the people who put up there.
DELANEY:
So, a lot of what's going on today is ceremonial and procedural. But you're getting into the thick of it fairly quickly, because tomorrow the government intends to introduce its climate change bill. The Minister Chris Bowen has said that the government is prepared to make some tweaks in order to get the approval of the Greens. What does that mean? How big a difference, how big a change is a tweak?
LEIGH:
We've said very clearly to the international community that Australia is going to reduce emissions by 43 per cent, which puts us in line with what countries such as Canada are doing. That 43 per cent isn't plucked out of the air. That's the built-up total of the policies we took to the election. People might wonder why that number doesn't end in five or zero, like some other targets that have been proposed. That's because we looked at what we were able to do, systematically added it up, and that amounted to a 43 per cent emissions reduction. Of course, the legislation will be a floor rather than a ceiling. If we're able to overachieve, to get bigger emissions reductions, then that'll be terrific.
DELANEY:
Which is all very well, but is that enough to appease the Greens, who apparently are concerned about the refusal of the government to put a stop to new gas and coal developments?
LEIGH:
It’ll be up to the Greens as to how they choose to vote. Obviously, they've got that record back in 2009 of voting against action on climate change, and the disastrous period that followed. If they want to take a similar approach now, I think that'd be a terrible mistake for them. But that's their decision.
DELANEY:
Also to be introduced into the Parliament, next Monday I believe, is the Private Member's Bill being put forward by your colleague Alicia Payne and your Northern Territory colleague Luke Gosling, in relation to territory rights. It's not expected to come to a vote straightaway though, is it?
LEIGH:
That's right - we have to have the debate first, Leon, then we have the vote. But full credit to Alicia Payne and Luke Gosling for bringing this forward. In the last two Parliaments, the 45th and 46th Parliaments, I've moved motions and bills to repeal the so-called Andrews Law - the 25‑year‑old ban on the territories legislating on voluntary assisted dying. We're now in the position where every state has done it and just the territories are banned from following suit. I've been having a bunch of productive conversations right across the parliament, including with people who have personal hesitation about voluntary assisted dying, but don't think it's reasonable to deny territories the right to debate the issue.
DELANEY:
Now, obviously there's a conscience vote for this one. And there'll be, I presume, a lot of debate. Are you anticipating a lengthy debate before coming to a vote?
LEIGH:
I'm not sure how many people will debate it. I was actually going back to the debate over the Andrews Bill around 1996‑97. That wasn't that extensive. I think there was probably a dozen people who spoke on it. So I wouldn't be surprised if it's something similar this time around. Of course, all of the territory representatives will have our say. There's five of us in the House, and we'll all be delivering speeches there. But I'm not sure how many other members will want to give a speech before they cast a vote.
DELANEY:
And it is a conscience vote. But already some members of the opposition have expressed their support, haven't they?
LEIGH:
Yes, it’s certainly been acknowledged by a number of members of the opposition that it is important to have territory rights in place. And people who might before have said, ‘well, don't let the territories go before the states’ aren't any longer saying ‘well, let's deny the territories the right to catch up with the rest of the country on voluntary assisted dying’.
DELANEY:
Now, today you've announced something to fall under your portfolio, which is the introduction of laws to ban unfair contract terms. Now this is an election promise, but what exactly do you mean by unfair contract terms?
LEIGH:
So when you think about an unfair contract term, Leon, imagine something like a contract that says that one party can just increase prices as much as they like or they can vary the contract or they can terminate the contract.
DELANEY:
That sounds exactly like the fine print in my mortgage I took out many years ago. When I took the trouble to actually read the document - and a lot of people wouldn't because it's a big document - I took the trouble to read it and basically, it gave the bank the right to unilaterally increase interest rates anytime it wanted to, vary any of the terms and conditions as it saw fit anytime it wanted to, unilaterally without consulting with me first. Basically, when I signed it, I told them they could do is they damn well pleased and I had no recourse whatsoever. Would that constitute an unfair term in a contract?
LEIGH:
I'm afraid it wouldn't, Leon. A variable rate mortgage is exactly what it says on the bottle. So in that sense, you're taking out a mortgage in which the lender has the ability to vary the rate. It's different from a fixed rate mortgage or a tracker rate mortgage -
DELANEY:
Oh, sure. It wasn't just, it wasn't just the interest rate. It basically said the bank reserves the right to vary any of the terms and conditions as they saw fit without consultation, and there was nothing I could do about it. It was like signing a blank cheque.
LEIGH:
Well, the ones where courts have described them as unfair contract terms have been where prices can be varied, but you can't get out of the contract. So there was one with Visy Recycling, Cleanaway, and Suez a couple of years back where they could increase the price of cleaning contracts on small businesses, but if firms then wanted to exit, then they had to pay for the full 12-month period. So that's the sort of thing that courts have decided to be an unfair contract term. At the moment they're unenforceable, but there's people who still put them in there, knowing that it will be expensive to litigate. Now, there will actually be fines on a big business that puts unfair contract terms in.
DELANEY:
Yeah, and you're specifically looking at what's known as standard form contracts. So a lot of businesses might not be going to the time, trouble and expense to have bespoke contracts drawn up by lawyers. They might just take a form contract off the shelf and fill in the blanks. But those form contracts are, apparently, one of the sources of this problem.
LEIGH:
Yes, exactly, Leon. So one of the examples from just last year, there was a company that provided hold music to small business. And if you wanted to cancel, you had to provide written notice 42 days before the end of the contract, otherwise they rolled you over for another two or three years. And that was found to be an unfair contract term. But again, that was still legal. There was no penalty on the large business for putting that in place. Now there will be.
DELANEY:
And you'll expand the definition of a small business as well, so that this protection will be available to more businesses.
LEIGH:
Yes, that's right for providing those additional protections. So that'll go from a threshold of less than 20 employees to a threshold of less than 100 employees.
DELANEY:
So what you're talking about there is businesses that are contracted by other businesses. What about consumers that are entering into contracts with businesses? Does this also cover them?
LEIGH:
Well, there's a separate set of consumer protections that are in place. But one of the things we've announced that we're going to do is to put in place tougher penalties on people who break the anti-competition or the anti-consumer laws. Because, Leon, when big firms can get away with pushing around small firms or customers, then that undermines faith in the whole system. We need to make sure people are playing by the rules, and of course, none of the increases in penalties and fines that we've announced will affect firms that are doing the right thing.
DELANEY:
Okay. So when is this new legislation going to be introduced into the parliament?
LEIGH:
That'll be in the coming weeks. I'm certainly keen to get these things done. We ran strongly on the issue of better competition laws in Australia, because that's so fundamental to productivity, Leon. We need more scrappy start-ups taking on the established incumbents if we’re to get the strong economic growth that Australia has been lacking over the past decade.
DELANEY:
So you don't have a definite date yet?
LEIGH:
It will just depend on the legislative schedule. I'm of course keen as mustard because it's one of my bills, but the manager of government business Tony Burke needs to balance that up with all of the other priorities. We've got bills coming through to provide 10 days family violence leave, cleaning up some of the challenges in aged care and providing those 24/7 nurses. So those things would take priority over the competition agenda, important as it is.
DELANEY:
Yeah. Well, it's interesting though, because by comparison, we've got a date for the territory rights legislation, which is next Monday, the first of August. And the Prime Minister before the election, when he was leader of the opposition, said that that particular issue wasn't a priority for the incoming government. Now, apparently, it is.
LEIGH:
We’re very keen to make sure it gets done. And certainly if you go back to the debate over the Andrews Law, one of those dozen or so members who spoke out against it was the Prime Minister. He was on the record 25 years ago saying that territory rights should be respected, and I'm sure it'll be a measure of personal pleasure for him to now finally see the end of that ban on the territories legislating on euthanasia. He's been very consistent on this issue, and a strong supporter of Territorians.
DELANEY:
Alright. I suppose you'd better get back to it. It's a busy day.
LEIGH:
Absolutely. Thanks, Leon. Good to chat.
DELANEY:
Thanks very much. Dr Andrew Leigh, the Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury and Federal Member for Fenner on 2CC.