SASKIA MABIN:
You are listening to the ABC Radio Canberra Drive show with me, Saskia Mabin. Next we’ll be getting into a bit of a discussion about how things are within the Labor party since the suspension of Fatima Payman. Let me just remind you, this is a little bit of audio from her interview on the weekend with David Speers on the Insiders program.
[Excerpt]
FATIMA PAYMAN:
If the same motion on recognising the state of Palestine was to be brought forward tomorrow, I would cross the floor. I respect the Prime Minister and my senior colleagues, and obviously the Prime Minister had a stern but fair conversation with me a few days ago and I understand that he’s got very important decisions to make as the leader of our nation. When I made the decision on the Senate floor to cross, I did it with the understanding that this could lead to expulsion and costing my Labor membership. But what I know is this is about 40,000 Palestinians that have been massacred and slaughtered since 7th of October, and I know that Australians are a fair people. And knowing about the Labor Party, we are a party with a conscience and champions of human rights, whether that be justice, fighting for freedom or equality. So, I believe that I’ve been abiding by those principles of the party.
[End of excerpt]
MABIN:
So, after those comments on the ABC Insiders program, Senator Payman was indefinitely suspended from the Labor caucus. Here’s a little bit about what Anthony Albanese said on ABC Radio yesterday.
[Excerpt]
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
The actions of an individual which is designed to undermine what is the collective position that the Labor party has determined. No individual is bigger than the team, and Fatima Payman is welcome to return to participating in the team if she accepts she’s a member of it.
[End of excerpt]
MABIN:
‘No individual is bigger than the team.’ Joining me is Andrew Leigh, the Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury, also the Assistant Minister for Employment. Andrew, thank you for your time on the show.
ANDREW LEIGH:
Real pleasure, Saskia. Thanks for having me on.
MABIN:
A pleasure. Now, what do you think there? ‘No individual is bigger than the team.’ Do you agree with our Prime Minister in his assessment of Fatima Payman?
LEIGH:
Look, absolutely, Saskia. I like to think that I’m well-liked around Canberra, but I’m pretty realistic in knowing that if I had put my hand up to run for election in 2010 without the words ‘Australian Labor Party’ underneath my name, I would have been lucky to get more than the votes of my family and a few mates. The reason I’m in the parliament is because I’m part of a team. That’s true of Senator Payman. That’s also true of everybody else in the Labor caucus. We first got elected thanks to being part of a team. So, the obligation there is to make strong arguments in the party room and then to go out in the field and to play as a team. It’s what the Brumbies do, it’s what the Raiders do. You can have an argument in the locker room, it’s about whether you’re going to pass the ball to the left or the right. But once you agree you’re going to pass the ball to the left, you’ve all got to go out in the field and play that play.
MABIN:
This particular issue, the question of Palestinian statehood, is one that’s very close to Senator Payman’s heart. Should she compromise her morals and, you know, what she really feels is the right thing to do if her party won’t back her?
LEIGH:
Look, it’s very close to my heart as well. I want a two‑state solution. I want an end to the attacks that we’re seeing. There are scenes of kids being killed, the devastation, the challenges of getting enough aid in, I mean those are just horrendous to be watching. We need a two‑state solution. And so the Australian Government’s working with the international community and the only way to break the cycle of violence is a ceasefire and a two-state solution. That’s what we’re working towards.
MABIN:
So, since she was suspended by the Prime Minister, and it sounds as though Fatima Payman knew that that was a very real possibility and, you know, still stuck to her guns, she said that she’s felt exiled by the party. This is a quote from a statement that she released yesterday. She said, ‘I’ve lost all contact with my caucus colleagues. I’ve been removed from caucus meetings, committees, internal group chats, end whips, bulletins. I’ve been told to avoid all chamber duties that require a vote, including divisions, motions and matters of public interest. I’ve been exiled. These actions lead me to believe that some members are attempting to intimidate me into resigning from the Senate.’
What do you have to say about that, Andrew Leigh?
LEIGH:
Well, that’s not consistent with the way in which I’ve engaged with Senator Payman. I touched base with her by text message last week. I know many other colleagues have done so as well, reached out to her in person. There’s obviously a division between the House and the Senate. I don’t get to see my wonderful Senate colleagues as much as I’d like to, but wherever I’ve had the chance, I’ve reached out to her and made clear that we’d love to have her as part of the team. And I think that is the best way of her achieving outcomes on the issue that she cares about along with many others in the Labor caucus. She is far from the only one in the Labor caucus that is passionate about getting a just and enduring peace in the Middle East. The way we achieve that is by working together. The way we form governments is through working together. It’s simple teamwork. To be part of the Labor Party is to be of a team. That team is the oldest and greatest team in Australian politics. And it’s the way in which progressive change happens in this country.
MABIN:
So, do you feel as though an indefinite suspension is the right and fair way to then deal with this issue here?
LEIGH:
Look, I mean, this is terribly sad. The decision is ultimately that of Senator Payman, who’s decided not to play with the team. The moment she wants to play with the team, she’ll be welcome back. And that’s my view, and I know that’s the view right across the Labor caucus. None of the actions today were done with anything other than sorrow, in a sense that we want to find a way of welcoming her back into the fold. She was elected as a Labor senator. I know Labor Party members across the country understand the value of people working together as a team, understand that the way in which we deliver outcomes such as the pay rise for 2 million workers on Monday, or the tax cuts for all taxpayers, or the energy bill relief, is by working as a team. No individual can achieve those goals. That’s true in politics as it is in so many other areas of life. Success is based on teamwork.
MABIN:
So, you would say then, just to wrap up that on her statement yesterday, that you feel as though she’s not being intimidated by members of the Labor caucus.
LEIGH:
I haven’t seen any evidence of that. Certainly in my own case it’s been exactly the opposite. I’ve reached out whenever I could, and talking to many other colleagues today, they’ve been doing exactly that. We want her to rejoin the team. We understand the issues that she cares deeply about. We’re committed to a just and enduring peace in the Middle East, and we want her help to better achieve that. Peace in the Middle East isn’t achieved through Senate motions. It’s achieved by governments engaging with the international community for the cause of justice.
MABIN:
You said that you’ve personally reached out to the Senator via text message. Do you know her well? Did you have much to do with each other before this?
LEIGH:
No, she’s only just come in. So, you know, we’ve probably had a handful of conversations. Certainly I’ve engaged with her, as I do with all the new members of caucus. It’s an intimidating place, federal politics, and you want to make people feel as welcome as you can.
MABIN:
On the text line from Tony in Wanniassa. ‘Hi, Saskia. If Senator Fatima can’t stand up for what she feels is right, then let’s ban all conscience votes. Then we’ll know what the party line is on all issues all the time.’ And this texter says, ‘Politics is not a sport, Andrew Leigh. That secrecy and rules of caucus diminished my right to representation at my local electorate level. The first question any elected official should ask, is this right for my voters, my electorate, not, is this right for my party.’ Do you have anything to say to that?
LEIGH:
Well, we used the team’s analogy, but you could use a military analogy instead, since much of what is done in the military sphere is by people working together. You could use a corporate analogy, in which firms are greater than any one individual. You could look at government agencies where many of our listeners work, in which the collective has a power that no individual can have. We are not a society of individuals. We are a society that values teamwork and working together, because we understand the gains that you get when you cooperate with others.
MABIN:
Yeah.
LEIGH:
That’s all this is about.
MABIN:
But also, what that texter is getting to there, suggesting that perhaps Senator Payman’s views do reflect that of the electorate and that maybe the party is out of step there. What do you have to say on that?
LEIGH:
Well, our party is passionately committed to a two‑state solution. We’ve been calling for both sides to step back from violence, supporting the US‑backed peace plan. Right now, if we had Hamas and the Netanyahu government signing up to that, then we would have a ceasefire and the ability to rebuild. There’s massive damage that’s been done. We need to get the rebuilding effort there, not only with buildings, but also with people. You think about the kids in the Middle East who have been subject to these horrendous bombings. Getting their lives back to some semblance of normality is absolutely vital. Australia has been working with the international community in order to achieve that.
MABIN:
Ok, on another issue today in the news, the Coalition has revealed its policy to rein in supermarket price gouging. They’re pledging to introduce divestiture powers as a last resort to manage supermarket behaviour. They’re also vowing to create a new role of supermarkets commissioner, a person who would investigate complaints between farmers and the big 3 operators. What’s your position on this proposal, Andrew Leigh?
LEIGH:
Well, on the second one, we’ve already got the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission’s commissioners looking hard at the issue of supermarkets. That’s alongside the work we’ve done in funding CHOICE for quarterly grocery price monitoring, and enabling the Food and Grocery Code of Conduct to be a mandatory code of conduct, not the voluntary code that it was when it was set up by the Liberals and the Nationals. Divestiture powers were recommended against by a slew of competition inquiries: the Harper Review, the Hilmer Review, the Dawson Review, the Emerson Review. And indeed, Craig Emerson most recently said that he was concerned that a divestiture power could worsen competition in the grocery sector. Peter Dutton couldn’t even answer the basic question: if you forced Coles to sell its stores, who would buy them? The risk is that, as the argument that Craig Emerson made, is that it could well be Woolworths and then you’d get more concentration in the sector rather than less.
MABIN:
Here’s a little bit of what David Littleproud had to say. He was speaking about – these powers would be sector specific, as a last resort, they wouldn’t be used if supermarkets do the right thing. Let’s take a listen.
[Excerpt]
LITTLEPROUD:
This isn’t about fixing prices and it won’t mean that tomorrow or when we get into government that we’re going to break up the supermarkets straight away. This is a deterrent. It is a deterrent to make sure they work within the regulatory guide rails.
[End of excerpt]
MABIN:
Ok, a deterrent to work within the regulatory guide rails. Andrew Leigh, what do you say to that?
LEIGH:
Well, if you don’t intend to use the deterrent, it’s not going to have much of a deterrent effect. We see this in the United States, where it’s a very long time since they used their divestiture powers in any serious way. The Bell break-up is now over a generation old, the Microsoft break-up was overturned in the courts. These are not powers which are regularly used elsewhere. We’re passionate about competition, we’ve got a bigger competition agenda than any past Australian Government. But our competition agenda is around things that work. The biggest shake up of merger laws in 50 years, looking seriously at non‑compete clauses, getting national competition policy going with states and territories. Practical, straightforward cost‑of‑living measures which will make a real difference to families and farmers, not these sorts of ideas that the Coalition is putting, which have been recommended against in so many inquiries.
MABIN:
A few texts coming through still on the topic of Senator Fatima Payman, which I’ll read to you, Andrew Leigh. This one from Spike: ‘I’d suggest that the Senator’s views,’ and that’s Senator Payman, ‘are a fair representation of a percentage of the community, a percentage that now feels somewhat disenfranchised.’ And this from Alison. ‘Hi. The simple fact is that this is how the Labor Party works to determine policy positions. If people don’t like the way the Labor Party operates, they can vote for different parties. I personally like knowing that if I vote for a Labor Party candidate, they won’t generally vote against the party.’ And one more on this, Andrew Leigh. ‘Why doesn’t Andrew Leigh concentrate on looking for a solution to solving the problem within his own party rather than preaching a two‑state solution that really he has very little input into?’ Did you want to respond to that one, Andrew Leigh?
LEIGH:
Well, the support for a two‑state solution is really fundamental to peace in the Middle East. Senator Payman says she supports a two‑state solution and the recognition of Palestine, and those are Labor positions. We believe recognition should be part of the peace process, and that is what was reflected in the position that the Labor caucus took last week. We believe in a just and enduring peace. We are working with the international community. Anne Aly, a Muslim member of our caucus, went to the Gaza Humanitarian Conference in Jordan recently, and reported back that many countries were warmly welcoming with the engagement that Australia has had, with the aid that we’ve provided, with our strong support for a two-state solution, which is the only way you get a just and enduring peace in the Middle East.
MABIN:
One more text to leave you with on this and then we will have to go to the newsroom, Andrew Leigh. This person says, ‘I want my elected politicians to be working for me and not for the man and the collective. Hopefully there’ll be a lot more independents selected next election time. I guess time will tell.’ But Andrew Leigh, thank you so much for your time on the Drive show today. Appreciate it.
LEIGH:
Real pleasure, Saskia. Thank you.