STEPHEN CENATIEMPO:
Now I’m sure my next guest will try and tell me why it’s so important that politicians should be able to tell me what’s true and what’s not. Andrew Leigh is the Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury and the Member for Fenner. Andrew, good morning.
ANDREW LEIGH:
G’day, Stephen, great to be with you.
CENATIEMPO:
This is the worst piece of legislation any government has ever put before the parliament in Australia’s history.
LEIGH:
Stephen, we know that there is serious misinformation and disinformation in Australia –
CENATIEMPO:
Who determines that?
LEIGH:
Well, we’ll have independent bodies doing it. But the threshold is very high. It must be reasonably verifiable that it’s false, misleading or deceptive, and reasonably likely to cause serious harm. That means harm to our electoral system, harm to public health…
CENATIEMPO:
Hang on, hang on. Harm to our electoral system. What information could possibly have harm to our electoral system?
LEIGH:
Well, we’ve seen in other countries, for example –
CENATIEMPO:
No, no, no. No, no. Let’s talk about our country, because we have an AEC, and we have very strict electoral rules. What is going to threaten our electoral system?
LEIGH:
Sure, I’m answering your question, Stephen. We’ve seen in other countries examples of people saying, for example, that the election date is on a different date from when it actually is. Suggestions that people don’t need to vote. Those sorts of misinformation might well be considered to constitute serious harm. There are exemptions –
CENATIEMPO:
Hang on. So, hang on. If you tell somebody they don’t need to vote you could get prosecuted under this legislation?
LEIGH:
This is an obligation on the platforms which are currently pursuing, currently engaged in some cases in spreading serious misinformation. We have foreign actors seeking to interfere with elections. We have people who are spreading misinformation around tragedies such as the Bondi stabbing. This is an important safeguard set in place to bring up digital platforms to the standards that we hold our other platforms to. Now, if you’re engaged in news, if you’re engaged in satire, if you’re doing academic work, all of that is exempt. But this is about an obligation on the platforms not to cause the kind of serious harm that damages health or our Australian democracy, that causes people to be injured or vilified.
CENATIEMPO:
Andrew, you know, I say this time and time again, you’re one of the smarter blokes in the parliament. If you’ve fallen for this well, you know, you’ve completely lost the plot. I mean everything you’ve said – I know you’re reading straight from the talking points and that’s fine, because that’s what you’re expected to do as a minister in this government, but nothing you’ve said there is even remotely justifiable.
LEIGH:
Stephen, I’m not reading from talking points. I’m telling you what’s happening. We have bots and troll farms attempting to manipulate elections, undermining democracy around the world. It is important that the laws keep pace with the sort of deep damage that is being done. Now these are laws that would only be used in exceptional circumstances, but we have serious threats out there to public health, to democracy, to the integrity of our social cohesion. And when people cause those sorts of harms using online platforms, we expect the online platforms to be held to account.
CENATIEMPO:
You know, once upon a time we were expected that we could be adults and make our own minds up, now the government wants to – this is the absolute epitome of nanny state legislation.
LEIGH:
I understand the importance of free speech. We’ve certainly recognised that. But the old line is that the right to free speech isn’t the right to shout fire in a crowded theatre. It’s not the right to go out there and pursue vilification against groups. You and I have spoken before about the scourge of anti‑Semitism and that’s why states and the Commonwealth government have stepped up and banned Nazi symbols. We’re talking –
CENATIEMPO:
But hang on a sec. See, this is the point, and this is the exact point I’m talking about, because the rise in anti‑Semitism in recent times has been driven by inaction by this government, and when you say you’ve banned Nazi symbols, most of the anti‑Semitism is not coming from Neo‑Nazis, it’s coming from other groups which we won’t call out anymore. That’s the point.
LEIGH:
Stephen, there has been a great deal of calling out of anti‑Semitism. I take exception to any suggestion that our government doesn’t take anti‑Semitism seriously. We’ve appointed the first Anti‑Semitism Commissioner in Jillian Segal. We take this matter enormously seriously. We understand the harms that have been done. I spoke in parliament straight after October 7 about the importance of maintaining social cohesion, called out the appalling attacks on Jewish Australians and who were in some cases caught up in the appalling October 7 attack –
CENATIEMPO:
Yeah and, Andrew, I’ll give you credit for that because individuals – hang on, let me say, because individuals and the government have done exactly what you’ve said you’ve done, and I’ve credited them for that when they’ve done it. But as a government the very top leadership of this government has been absolutely blasé about that and that’s why we’ve had a rise in anti‑Semitism, not because there’s misinformation or disinformation out there. The misinformation is coming from a government that won’t actually call out terrorists for attacking a sovereign nation in the strongest, strident forms that they should. I mean let’s be fair dinkum here.
LEIGH:
We’ve always called for Hamas to cease its attacks, for the return of hostages. Hamas is a listed terrorist organisation in Australia. Hamas’s behaviour has always been appalling. We have been very consistent on that, as we have been on Islamophobia, which has risen as well. The conflict in the Middle East is causing hostilities on both sides. We see that around the world, we see that in Amsterdam, in the United States. These are challenges that countries are facing. Some of that harm gets spread online and that’s part of the reason why this misinformation and disinformation bill is before the parliament.
CENATIEMPO:
I want to move on from this because you and I are never going to agree on this. This is just bad policy to start with. But I want to talk about the ACCC supermarket inquiry, because whilst we might come at this from different angles, we can all agree that we need better competition. What happened with – I mean there’s 2 parts of the information that Aldi’s Managing Director of National Buying Jordan Lack gave. Some problem with their IT infrastructure?
LEIGH:
There’s been a good lot of information coming through. I’ve been in a competition conference yesterday, so I didn’t follow every twist and turn of the evidence that was given. Certainly, we know the importance of getting Aldi out there. My colleague Luke Gosling has been urging Aldi to open stores in the Northern Territory where the competitive pressure isn’t present because it’s just Coles and Woolworths there. By funding CHOICE, by funding the ACCC, we’re providing more competition in the supermarket sector, and this inquiry really is a terrific deep‑dive for the first time in 16 years into supermarket competition.
CENATIEMPO:
One of the things that Jordan Lack did say out loud here, and I know you’re going to use it as an excuse to attack the Coalition’s policy of divestiture powers, but anything that is done to make the major supermarkets treat their suppliers more fairly is going to drive prices up. We just have to accept that. If we start paying the farmers properly then Woollies and Coles are going to put their prices up. It’s as simple as that.
LEIGH:
Well, these supermarkets enjoy pretty healthy profits and one of the things you try to do when you bring more competition into the system is to get profits down to a more normal level.
CENATIEMPO:
Well, their profit margins are about 3 per cent.
LEIGH:
Well, there’s different measures, depends on whether you’re talking on a return on equity or on revenue. But certainly, they’re making good profits and I’m not aware of a year in the last decade or 2 in which Coles or Woolworths have made a loss.
CENATIEMPO:
Do we want them to make a loss?
LEIGH:
No.
CENATIEMPO:
No.
LEIGH:
But we don’t want super profits in the supermarket sector, that’s the point.
CENATIEMPO:
But hang on, but what is a super profit? See super profits are something that only Labor ever talks about. What is a super profit?
LEIGH:
In economics you would talk about a profit that is above average for the economy. In highly monopolised sectors you’ll often see super profits being earned, and that can be a sign that market concentration is being used by the monopolist.
CENATIEMPO:
But if you’re a small business and you’re making a profit margin of any less than about 20 per cent you’re going broke. The major supermarkets have overall profit margins of about 3, 3.5 per cent. I mean that’s hardly a super profit.
LEIGH:
The major supermarkets have done very well for themselves. I don’t think they need me spruiking their interests on air. What I’m keen to do is to ensure that we get the best deal for farmers and the best deal for families. We’re out there doing that with the mandatory Code of Conduct, we’re out there doing that with the CHOICE price monitoring. There’s been a huge amount of work on the supermarkets to ensure that they behave well, and part of this isn’t just about prices, Stephen, it’s also about how they treat their suppliers.
CENATIEMPO:
That’s exactly my point. If they start treating their suppliers properly prices will go up, even if they maintain their current profit margins.
LEIGH:
I don’t think it’s a zero‑sum game. I don’t think it’s as simple as you suggest. This is partly about behaviour as well as simply about how much people pay.
CENATIEMPO:
But, Andrew, Andrew, business is, you pay – you know, this is how business works. You pay a dollar for an item; you sell it for 2. That’s how businesses make a profit and keep operating. If the price of whatever you’re buying goes up to $2, then you’ll sell it for 4. That’s just how business works.
LEIGH:
Stephen, as I’ve been explaining to you, this isn’t entirely about prices. This is also about how you treat suppliers. It’s about the unfairness in the contracts, it’s about concerns of capricious behaviour by the buyers for the major supermarkets and how that affects the smaller supermarkets. And yes, it is also about price and in that equation, there is what people pay, there is the profit margin and there’s what the farmers receive, and all of that tie together.
CENATIEMPO:
Andrew, as always, I thank you for your time. We’ll talk in a couple of weeks.
LEIGH:
Thanks Stephen, take care.