Hamish Macdonald:
Andrew Leigh, welcome to 702 Mornings.
Andrew Leigh:
Thanks Hamish, great to be with you.
Macdonald:
Andrew Bragg, the Coalition Senator – one of your opposites in the Shadow Ministry had a bit of a hit out at you on the program yesterday, saying too much regulation. Five thousand new regulations. He says you’ve lumped $5 billion of new regulatory costs on businesses, 400 new laws onto the box. Has he got a point?
Leigh:
Not in the least Hamish. Let me tell you what Andrew Bragg has done. He went to the Parliamentary Library and asked them to count up the number of regulations in Labor’s last term. They came back with the answer 5,034. So, I got curious. I asked the Parliamentary Library how many regulations were passed in the Coalition’s last term? They said 5,383. So, if Andrew Bragg was being honest, he’d be telling everyone that regulations have fallen under Labor.
But of course, counting the number of regulations is a bit like working out the quality of a library by weighing the books. It’s not a particularly helpful exercise when you’re weighing up regulations to improve child safety, national security or indeed regulations that reduce the regulatory burden.
Macdonald:
Do you accept though, that people working and living in the real economy experience too much regulation? Like, we hear it day in, day out here from listeners – it’s just too difficult to get things done.
Leigh:
Well, if you’re talking about areas like aged care or childcare, then I think there’s a demand for getting more regulation in some cases. If you’re looking at the thicket of regulation that’s slowed down housing approvals, then yes we’ve got a challenge. The key isn’t to get rid of all regulation, it’s about making regulation smarter.
That’s what Labor’s been doing through our National Competition Policy reforms, through improving occupational licensing, making it easier for people to switch jobs and making it easier to approve clean energy projects. All of this is the hard work of sorting out regulation, rather than the easy job of just sitting back and pretending you can count regulations, then be done with it.
Macdonald:
I suppose if we are into counting regulations. If you’ve put 5,000 in, if the previous government put 5,000 in. That’s an awful lot of regulations that people trying to run small businesses, trying to get homes built or development applications through might experience. Do you think it is too hard to, for example, get a house built, to run a small business in cities like Sydney?
Leigh:
Yeah, I think there’s a challenge of overlapping regulations in the area of housing, and that’s one that Clare O’Neil is keenly focused on. But when Labor got rid of nuisance tariffs in our last term, getting rid of a couple of hundred nuisance tariffs – that sort of change requires regulatory approval. With the work we’re doing to make it easier for exporters to access overseas markets, some of that involves regulation. So, simplification is often a case of regulation.
What we’re aiming to do for the interest of Australians is to make it easier to build. Easier to build clean energy, easier to build homes. We’re focused on an optimistic abundance agenda that’s really been at the heart of the competition policy reforms that we championed during our last term of government, and which the Competition Taskforce continues to work on. And the big ideas that will be brought around the Cabinet table today, tomorrow, and the day after are focused on raising the speed limit of the Australian economy.
Macdonald:
I suppose a lot of people listening though, would observe that often the problems arise not necessarily at one layer of government, but at the intersection of the different layers of government. We hear local mayors here in Sydney hitting out at the state government trying to fast‑track housing approvals. We hear state governments raising concerns about Commonwealth regulations. Is anything at this Economic Reform Roundtable going to address the really serious problems that exist just because we have 3 layers of government? Three tiers of government?
Leigh:
Great question. And really, housing is probably the best example of this Hamish. Whether the Commonwealth, states and territories have a 1.2 million home target. And we know that much of that needs to be done through local council approvals. So, setting clear targets, making clear how we’re going to go about using artificial intelligence through that process, taking advantage of the strong shared commitment across government to build more homes, and translating that into quicker approval times.
I talk to builders now who say it takes longer to get the paperwork done than it used to do to build the home, and they’re spending too much time doing paperwork and not enough time building homes. So, the focus that the government has, particularly through Minister Clare O’Neil, really is focused around that multiple‑tier challenge that we have in housing.
Macdonald:
You’re listening to Andrew Leigh. He’s the Assistant Minister responsible for productivity and competition as this federal government economic roundtable gets underway in Canberra. 1300 222 702 is the number if you’d like to join the conversation this morning. Do you have a policy for dealing with NIMBYs, people that don’t want any of this stuff in their backyard? If you’re identifying housing as a key issue, and you know, we talk about it day in, day out here in Sydney of all cities. How you do this without upsetting people that don’t want to see change in their local environment?
Leigh:
There’s a burgeoning YIMBY movement as well, which is saying ‘yes in my backyard’ on behalf of those who are struggling to afford a home. There’s also the possibility of getting more standardised approvals. So, I’ve seen interesting models where councils pre‑approve certain designs which have been worked through with architectural bodies in order to look beautiful and be affordable at the same time. Some of the work that Clare O’Neil is doing around modular construction allows us to save costs and get better environmental outcomes at the same time.
And there’s recognition, I think, broadly shared that you want to make public transport networks work as well as possible by having townhouse developments close to transport nodes and reducing the number of moments at which we’re demanding that people own a car and allowing people to make use of terrific public transport networks like Sydney’s.
Macdonald:
Do you think, if we’re being really honest, a bit about this though, cities like Sydney will have more people? Because you’re going to continue migration flows and they’re going to be more dense? There’s just going to be more people in less space?
Leigh:
We’ve reined in migration from the record high flows that we had under the Coalition, and we recognise that we need to get that balance right. One of the key things that you see in the construction sector is a skills shortage. So, migrants aren’t just mouths to feed, they’re also muscles to build and minds to inspire. Getting more construction workers in, as well as the work we’re doing in order to train construction apprentices, is all part of being able to ensure that we’re building the homes that a growing population demands.
Macdonald:
I think voters, residents here in Sydney are pretty skeptical of things like economic roundtables. What on earth are they going to deliver? There’s been commentary that this whole thing’s a stitch‑up. Are you genuinely open to ideas you hear over the next few days?
Leigh:
Absolutely. And the people who are coming to the roundtable are not people who would be easily managed. They’re coming in with big ideas, big hearts and big ambitions for the country. I think that’s a terrific thing. And anytime that I see the naysayers and nabobs of negativity arguing that we shouldn’t have these sorts of exercises, I worry about their diminished aspirations for the country. Australia needs to be a country that prizes big ideas and encourages contributions from wherever they come from.
I’ve been part of half a dozen roundtables around the country in the lead‑up to this conversation, chatting with experts in particular sectors and particular regions. There’s been hundreds of people who’ve taken the time to make submissions. And of course, the process is ongoing as we work to raise the living standards of Australians, which is really what productivity is all about.
Macdonald:
Do you worry that your kids won’t have the same standard of living that you’ve enjoyed? Is that ultimately what this comes down to?
Leigh:
It’s not about my kids, but it’s about the generations to follow and the importance of improving living standards and having growth with equity. You know, I look at our sporting codes which are constantly breaking records and showing us that you don’t have to trade‑off between fairness and excellence. And yet there’s parts of the Australian economy that are pretty stagnant. And if they were a sporting code, we’d have one team, one set of fans and one very bored mascot.
So, we can learn a lot from sport and the way in which it encourages healthy competition in order to raise standards, the way in which it invests in coaching, and its recognition that having strong rules really ensures a better game.
Macdonald:
Andrew Leigh, thanks very much.
Leigh:
Thanks so much, Hamish.