James Findlay:
It’s been a big day in politics again. Just a day of discussions and compromise really, for the hate speech laws that will pass parliament – that’s what’s being reported. Let’s get straight into it. Dr Andrew Leigh is the Member for Fenner and the Assistant Minister for Competition. Dr Leigh, we’ll get to your call for consultation about supermarket competition in just a moment, because I know it’s something that you want to chat about today, but what has the government had to compromise with the hate speech bill to get the support from the Liberal Party today?
Andrew Leigh:
Well James, we’ve stripped out the vilification component of these laws. It was specifically recommended by the Antisemitism Envoy, it was publicly supported by the Opposition at the time, but it’s clear that the Opposition now won’t support that in the parliament, and so we’ve stripped out that part of the laws.
The rest of the laws have gone through the House today. They’re with the Senate, and we’re expecting to have them back in the House for a vote at 8 o’clock tomorrow morning.
Findlay:
Okay, okay. So, Senate for amendments to the bill?
Leigh:
Who knows what the Senate does.
Findlay:
Who knows what the Senate does?
Leigh:
I don’t really speak Senate, that’s Katy Gallagher’s expertise. But I expect that both the legislation established and the national gun buy‑back scheme and the legislation which cracks down on hate, division, radicalisation, hate preachers and the like, those 2 bills will pass the Senate sometime today.
Findlay:
Okay. Yesterday, the Prime Minister was quite strong in his wording, saying that he was going to drop the laws if they couldn’t pass. This is all a bit of what he had to say yesterday with Raf Epstein.
[Excerpt]
Raf Epstein:
No more, not another attempt even in this term of parliament?
Anthony Albanese:
Well, we’re not going to – we’re not a government that puts things up over and over again to see them defeated. What we do is we implement what reforms we can.
Epstein:
It’s just that the Greens might be open to changes that are broader. You’re not talking about hate speech around things like sexuality or disability. You could?
Albanese:
No, we accept that there’s not a majority for the reforms that we were pursuing.
[End of excerpt]
Findlay:
So what’s changed the Prime Minister’s mind, do you think Andrew Leigh?
Leigh:
Well, he’s a realist, James. We’ve been very clear that these are measures that we would like to get through, that these are measures that reflect the Special Envoy’s recommendations, measures that the Coalition said that they supported. But with the Coalition and the Greens not being willing to support that, there isn’t a clear passage through the parliament.
Look, Labor’s always stood alongside those who are marginalised and those who are the victims of hate speech. You saw that during the 2010s when we were standing against the then Coalition government’s attempt to water down Australia’s racial hatred laws. We are the party of the Sex Discrimination Act, the Racial Discrimination Act, the party which has stood with gay and lesbian Australians against persecution of that minority group.
So we will always be doing what we can in order to build the open, tolerant liberal democracy that Australia cherishes, but we need to do so cognisant of the constraints that we have with the numbers in the parliament.
Findlay:
Independent MP, Allegra Spender says she’s disappointed that the racial vilification has been taken out of your hate speech laws. This is what she’s had to say, and you know, Allegra Spender does – her electorate takes in Bondi Beach.
[Excerpt]
Allegra Spender:
My people are very concerned about free speech, and it is really important. But at the same time when hate preachers can call for things like the final solution to the Jews, which is some people have called for, and that not to be an offence, that is a concern, because we know that violence starts with hate, and that hate starts with words.
[End of excerpt]
Findlay:
So is the bill strong enough to do what you want it to do now that it’s being amended by the Liberal Party?
Leigh:
James, I share Allegra Spender’s disappointment. The Prime Minister shares that disappointment, the Executive Council for Australian Jewry shares that disappointment. This is not the bill that we wanted to see. We wanted it to have that crackdown on hate speech. That is incredibly important in an atmosphere in which we have those seeking to sow hatred and division in Australia.
We’ve done a huge amount on dealing with hate speech, but the Coalition has chosen to kowtow to those on the far right. Look I don’t pay very much attention to opinion polls, but this is the week in which we’ve seen One Nation pull ahead of the Coalition, and I think it’s a marker that when the Coalition decides to allow those far right elements to pull it further away from average Australians, then it does pay a price in the polls.
Findlay:
So why didn’t the government work with the Greens to push the bill the other way?
Leigh:
The Greens weren’t willing to strike a deal on this. I think that’s again disappointing, but it is what it is. We have 2 bills which will go through the parliament – bills which will make a tangible difference in setting up the national gun buy‑back scheme, and cracking down on hate in Australia.
And that goes alongside a whole lot of other things we’re doing. David Gonski’s taskforce into the education system. The Minister for Home Affairs cancelling and rejecting visas for those who’d spread hate and division. Here in Canberra we have the new investment in the National Holocaust Education Centre. Record investment in countering violent extremism. So, this is a government that has done more than any previous government on tackling antisemitism, and alongside that, other forms of division.
Findlay:
Okay, so the hate speech laws goes back to the House tomorrow we’re expecting?
Leigh:
The House is due to reconvene at 8 am tomorrow and to consider any amendments that come through from the Senate, and then hopefully to pass those bills.
Findlay:
Okay. So, that’s the gun laws one as well?
Leigh:
That’s right.
Findlay:
Right.
Leigh:
Those gun laws will be very important. We’ve got more guns now than we did as a nation at the time of Port Arthur. The gun law reforms that were put through by John Howard at the time did save lives, and I think it’s a pity again that the Coalition is not supporting those reforms.
You saw John Howard and Tim Fischer stand up in the national interest in 1996–97 with a Gun Buy‑Back Scheme that my research estimates saves around 200 Australian lives a year. The Coalition of today wouldn’t be recognisable by those in the 1990s who put principle before politics.
Findlay:
You’re on 666 ABC Radio Canberra, 14 past 5. With you is Dr Andrew Leigh, the Member for Fenner and also the Assistant Minister for Competition – which brings us to another point here. You’re asking for feedback on competition laws for supermarkets. What are supermarkets doing that needs a closer eye?
Leigh:
Well, Australia’s supermarkets have a lot of power and as they say in Spiderman, ‘With great power comes great responsibility.’ One of those responsibilities we believe, is to be more upfront with Australians about their prices, and so this consultation will look at whether we should require large supermarkets to publish prices online and ensuring web scraping technologies can enable online comparison websites so Australians get a better deal on their shop.
We’re also exploring whether very large supermarkets should provide members with 6‑monthly information summaries for loyalty programs, and whether all supermarkets should publish their prices in‑store, which is something that the majors do but some of the smaller remote supermarkets don’t currently do.
Findlay:
Oh my. Okay. What kind of promotional and pricing practices are you talking about here that need maybe more scrutiny from the ACCC?
Leigh:
Well, it’s important that we’re able to see what the prices are. There’s a bunch of comparison apps out there at the moment, but those comparison apps can’t always get the data that they need. So this consultation will look at whether or not there ought to be more done to provide price transparency. And as you know James, that sits alongside our moves to make supermarket price gouging illegal, to strengthen the Unit Pricing Code, to crack down on shrinkflation and to fund CHOICE to give shoppers more information on supermarket prices.
Findlay:
Yeah. It will be interesting to see how that comes about and how you’ll be able to look at price gouging and make sure that supermarkets aren’t doing it because finding out whether they’re doing it or not would be a task in itself, right?
Leigh:
That’s right.
Findlay:
That’s quite the challenge.
Leigh:
The laws will empower the competition watchdog to crack down on that. It will be up to them as to what they judge to be price gouging, but there are price gouging provisions that exist in parts of the United States, the UK, the European Union, so we’re not going alone on this. We’re putting in place sensible, practical measures to ensure Australians get a fair deal at the checkout. And by the way, strengthening the Supermarket Code of Conduct to benefit farmers in their dealing as suppliers with big supermarkets.
Findlay:
Look, just before you go Andrew Leigh, you know, listeners do get excited when there’s a local member on the radio. I’ve got a couple of questions that have come in, but they’ll be questions without notice.
Leigh:
Great!
Findlay:
So this is coming from Martin, saying, ‘Canberra’s aquatic centres are in the news. Andrew Leigh is the federal government keen to support the new pool at Commonwealth Park without a diving platform and deep diving pool? It seems like the ACT Government doesn’t know what it’s doing with our local pools, public and private. Big Splash is also in the news at the moment when it comes to local politics.’ Have you been across the local pools situation, Andrew Leigh? I think Commonwealth Park might be outside your electorate though?
Leigh:
It’s outside my electorate James, but I’m a keen swimmer, and so very keen to ensure that we have plenty of good aquatic facilities around the place. Martin’s right, the Commonwealth government is making a contribution towards that Commonwealth Park pool, that will provide a critical resource as Civic Pool closes down.
I know the ACT Government is working with a range of constituents, including swimmers and divers, to try and make it as good as it can be, given the budget constraints that they face, and I think very much the same is true of Big Splash. It’s a facility that’s great fun to take the kids along to, but it’s a question as to how it can be made financially viable and how that can be done without placing an undue burden on the ACT taxpayers at a time when both the ACT and the Commonwealth budgets are under pressure.
Findlay:
Yeah. Another person’s texting wondering whether there could be more money from the feds to help put a dive pool somewhere else for Canberra?
Leigh:
We’ve made record infrastructure investments in the ACT, but we do so based on the recommendations from the ACT Government. So, the ACT Government essentially comes to us each budget cycle and says these are our infrastructure priorities and we work with them in order to make that happen.
So it’s really a question as to what are the priorities for the ACT Government and how we can best work with them. And that cooperative spirit I think really benefits Canberrans because they know that unlike where you had the Morrison government waging war on Canberra, you now have an Albanese government with a Prime Minister who lives here and a Finance Minister who’s from the ACT, and a government that is strongly committed towards Canberra getting its fair share of infrastructure spend.
Findlay:
Andrew Leigh, always good to catch up. Thank you for taking the time this afternoon.
Leigh:
Thanks so much James, take care.
Findlay:
Andrew Leigh there, the Member for Fenner here on 666 ABC Radio Canberra.