Mark Levy:
Well if you were listening to the show yesterday, I was joined by George Sowmi. He’s the boss at Origin Bathrooms. And you’ll remember he told us about his struggle with these fake Google reviews. The story in short is that foreign actors, in this case from Pakistan, have been leaving fake reviews for George’s business. They then contact the business owner asking for money to take down the reviews. And this is the sort of thing that’s happening across the country, impacting businesses like George’s. Take a listen to the effect this has had on his business. This is George speaking yesterday.
[Excerpt]
George Sowmi:
You think about who’s contracting us to do work. It’s mums and dads who are investing a huge amount of money. One of their biggest investments that they make in their home, renovating kitchens and bathrooms and laundries. And that Google review is an instant thing that recognises to them that they can trust us. If we’ve got a bad score, not only do they not see us; if they do see us, they won’t even bother clicking on us because they need to be able to trust us. For us, this is detrimental.
[End of excerpt]
Levy:
George Sowmi speaking yesterday to us here on 2GB Mornings. And this is something we’re seeing happen not only here in New South Wales, it’s right across the country to small businesses everywhere. Andrew Leigh is the Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury. He’s on the line with me now. Assistant Minister, good morning to you.
Andrew Leigh:
Good morning Mark, great to be with you.
Levy:
And you too. Are you aware of these fake Google reviews and the damage that’s being done to these businesses?
Leigh:
Absolutely. It’s an issue that’s been raised by the competition watchdog’s Digital Platform Services Inquiry. And if Google is monetising a review process, it has an obligation to ensure that that review process has integrity. I really feel for a business that is relying on its online reputation. Gone are the days in which people are getting new information by word of mouth. Now the online reputation really counts.
So, we do need to make sure that Google reviews have integrity and that their review system has an ability to take down fake reviews quickly. The ACCC recommended that there should be a mandatory process to remove fake reviews and that that should be done in a reasonable time period.
Levy:
I’ve spoken to a lot of business owners, Assistant Minister, over the last 24 hours and they’ve expressed to me their frustrations that while they complain to Google and in some cases have even sent Google legal letters, they don’t get a response. So, their complaints are falling on deaf ears. Are you hearing the same thing, and what can be done about it?
Leigh:
Yes, we’re certainly hearing complaints about that. And one of the things we’re looking at in this new digital platform approach is whether it’s appropriate to designate certain large players that would be subject to a higher level of scrutiny. Google has 94 per cent of the search market and so it really is one of Australia’s biggest monopolists in that area. And therefore, with great power comes great responsibility. We believe that it is appropriate to be holding these big tech platforms to account.
Levy:
Do you, as the Assistant Minister, have any conversations with Google yourself? Or is it as difficult getting a hold of somebody at Google as it is for any other business owner across Australia?
Leigh:
No, no, I meet with Google representatives from time to time and certainly they have continued to engage. They’re still engaged through the News Media Bargaining Code, for example, with the government. We can continue a constructive conversation, but that doesn’t change the fact that they have a 94 per cent market share and that the government needs to, as part of our ambitious competition reforms, hold big monopolists to account.
Levy:
Is there more that we could be doing from a government perspective? Because the frustration out there that is being done to these businesses is palpable. And it’s forced a lot of them to either just pay the extortion because they just need to get on with running their business and making money and, you know, being able to put food on the table for their families, because a lot of these are family businesses.
And I’m just wondering whether there’s more we can do from a parliamentary point of view and legislation point of view to try and stop this from happening, given I suppose people’s hands are tied with these foreign actors emanating out of places like Pakistan?
Leigh:
I think it’s an obligation on the platform in the first instance. And reporting these fake reviews to the National Anti‑Scam Centre is the first place to go. That was set up by Labor in order to deal with the scourge of scams across the economy. They’re not just bad for individual businesses; they’re bad for people’s trust in the digital economy.
And the risk that people don’t engage in online commerce because they don’t believe what they can see online. But the ex‑ante regime we’re looking at, with designated big platforms to be subject to an additional level of scrutiny, is also another thing that would bring more focus on the fake reviews.
Levy:
Well, if your office can put us in contact with somebody at Google, we might be able to help a few of these business owners that are contacting us because they’re at their wits’ end and they just can’t get a response. So, we’ll see what we can do there. While I’ve got you Assistant Minister, a bit of a double header for you today because CHOICE has released their latest quarterly report into supermarket prices. Who comes out as the cheapest?
Leigh:
Well, Aldi comes out the cheapest and if you’re in New South Wales, the cheapest basket of groceries in any state or territory in any supermarket is Aldi in New South Wales. They come out about 5 per cent cheaper than the next cheapest, which is Coles, followed by IGA and then Woolworths. That means that shoppers can save by going to Aldi first. We’re funding CHOICE to do this quarterly grocery price monitoring alongside a suite of things we’re doing to get shoppers a fair deal in the supermarkets.
Levy:
This is the sixth report, but from what I can gather, you just mentioned there that you know you’re funding it through CHOICE to be done. Is there any need for a quarterly report to be funded by the government to tell us which supermarket is cheapest when consumers can just go out there and shop around and do it themselves?
Leigh:
Yeah, I think more information is always valuable. A lot of people rely on information from CHOICE, but of course CHOICE is a subscription‑based organisation that needs to charge for its product. What we’ve done here is to increase the frequency of the CHOICE reports and get them out in public so everyone can read them for nothing.
You’ll often be deciding whether it’s worth the extra time to go to another supermarket. And in providing the concrete details as to how much cheaper Aldi is compared to the majors, people then are empowered by that information to work out whether they need to shop around.
Levy:
The point I’m trying to make though Assistant Minister, with respect, is that I think most people listening to us this morning would probably say hand on heart, ‘Yeah, of course Aldi’s cheaper, everybody knows Aldi’s cheaper than Coles, Woolies, IGA’. I’m just wondering whether the government’s spending money on a report to tell us what most people already know. Whether it’s necessary. Is that a fair point or not?
Leigh:
Mark, I think it’s fair to say that people knew that Aldi was cheaper. I don’t think it’s fair to say that people knew how much cheaper it was. The latest report suggests that Aldi…
Levy:
But does it matter how much cheaper it is? I mean, if it’s cheap, you’re going to go and shop there, aren’t you?
Leigh:
Well, Aldi don’t typically stock the full range of products, so people engage in what’s called split‑basket shopping. They’ll get the bulk of their groceries at Aldi and then they’ll go and do a top‑up shop at Woolies and Coles. Now, almost every Aldi supermarket in Australia is within 500 metres of a Coles or Woolies. So, knowing that price difference will drive how busy people decide to do their shop. People are time‑poor and so they’re not always going to drive to another suburb to do their shopping. They’re going to make that decision based on how much cheaper it is.
Levy:
All right, one last one before you go. A lot’s been said about the selfie between your boss, the Prime Minister and Donald Trump. You’ve been in politics a little while Andrew, you got any famous people as selfies in your phone?
Leigh:
So, my favourite selfie lately was with Rob De Castella, one of my great marathoning heroes. Rob has set up the Indigenous Marathon Foundation, so I got a shot with him and Charlie Maher, the first Indigenous graduate of the Indigenous Marathon Foundation. So, that’s one that always brings a smile to my face when I flick past it.
Levy:
Was there a part of you, though, when you saw Albo’s selfie with the Trumpster and you thought, ‘oh, jeez, this looks a bit staged’. It’s a little bit desperate, isn’t it?
Leigh:
It’s what the leader needs to do in order to represent the interests of the country.
Levy:
What, take selfies?
Leigh:
Well, the Prime Minister is engaging in a whole range of different ways. They’ve had 4 conversations. They’re looking forward to the face‑to‑face conversation. I think all of that is very healthy and this is important in the national interest to be engaging with world leaders. The PM’s done that in China, he’s done that in Japan, he’s done that with the UK, he’ll be doing that in the United Arab Emirates on this trip.
Levy:
Alright, well Andrew mate, if you can or your office can put us in contact with someone at Google, I reckon we’ll be able to help quite a number of businesses that are contacting us as far as these fake reviews are concerned. I appreciate you jumping on and answering a few questions because there’s a lot of anger and frustration out there and if we can help these business owners, well, we’re doing a good deed for the community. Thanks for your time as always.
Leigh:
Good on you Mark. Be very happy to do that.
Levy:
Thank you mate. There he is, Dr Andrew Leigh, Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury joining us here on the morning show.