Patricia Karvelas:
I want to bring in my political panel for today. Zali Steggall is the Independent MP for Warringah. Andrew Leigh is the Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury. Welcome to both of you. Now, you know, I’m going to let people in on a little secret. Zali Steggall was basically heckling while Barnaby Joyce was speaking right there.
Zali Steggall:
I was not!
Karvelas:
Why were you heckling?
Steggall:
Oh look, I think it’s an interesting – I think there is definitely a pushback against the major parties. People are doing a protest vote. But there’s a real question of when you look at that result, there isn’t a growth of the conservative vote. There’s a realignment of conservative voters going from the Coalition and Liberals to One Nation. But ultimately the beneficiary is Labor. Labor now has a whopping majority and there really is no effective opposition in yet another state. So, I think we have to be really careful about understanding the analysis. It’s that right side of politics realigning in a more, I think, extreme way – not a growth overall from the community.
Karvelas:
Okay. I understand that point broadly. But Andrew Leigh, it is sending some messages about no doubt, some economic grievance. People are feeling under the pump, we know that. But also, according to your own political leaders like Peter Malinauskas, perhaps some cultural issues, patriotism, the way people view these issues. Do you agree with that?
Andrew Leigh:
Absolutely Patricia. I think One Nation is out there trying to make people angry and people need to be asking, ‘What does One Nation stand for?’ This is a party that wants to take us back in terms of winding back abortion protections. That wants to increase tariffs that would make Australian goods more expensive. That wants to move to much more expensive ways of producing energy by opening 3 coal fired power stations at a time when we’ve just passed 50 per cent renewables in the grid. So that grievance, as Peter Malinauskas pointed out, is very real and it needs to be addressed by looking at policies which are going to see Australians earn more and keep more of what they earn.
Karvelas:
Okay, and do you see some of that grievance coming to get Labor as well? So far, there’s been a lot of discussion that it’s just, you know, something that’s happening on the right wing side of politics. Can you see that it’s coming your way? There were swings, for instance, against Labor in favour of One Nation in some pretty working‑class Labor heartland.
Leigh:
The political conversation has gotten angrier and scratchier over recent years, and that affects all of us. And Zali would see that in her community as well. It’s incumbent on all of us as leaders to try and turn the temperature down and to encourage policies which bring us together rather than tear us apart. One Nation is very good at saying what it’s against. It’s not very good at saying what it’s for. And when it comes to policies in parliament, it has not been a party that has fought for better wages and conditions for working people, which is ultimately, I think, the way to address the economic source of grievance.
Karvelas:
Some of the proposals which are currently being looked at for the budget; negative gearing, capital gains tax. Really interesting interview with Andrew Hastie a little earlier where he didn’t reveal all his cards, but said that he does think that there needs to be changes for intergenerational fairness because young people are so angry. Does that give you hope that perhaps there’s a consensus building on some of these issues?
Steggall:
Well I think ultimately voters, I think their will is what prevails. And we know from – there is this growing intergenerational inequity. Young voters are really despondent. They are not wedded to the major parties, and they are looking for alternatives. In our communities it’s overwhelmingly been a support for community independence. And you can see in other areas that it’s a turn to One Nation. Absolutely, we need to wind back the capital gains incentives and negative gearing when it comes to investment properties. We need to bring housing back to being an essential, core sort of need and right for Australians.
Of course, my colleague Allegra Spender has put forward a lot of proposal when it comes to modernising our tax system. I think what’s interesting is we have a government with a whopping majority, even here federally, but they haven’t really had the courage to tackle big issues. The question will be, ‘Are we going to get a fairer revenue for our gas exports?’ Again, there’s a big push around that. The question is on the government.
But can I just say, you know, patriotism and feeling proud of Australia is not what One Nation put it as, right? I’ve represented Australia at the Olympics. I’ve carried the Australian flag in an Olympic ceremony. I am absolutely patriotic. And you know, there are many Australians when you go to citizenship ceremonies, right? It’s a multifaith, multicultural Australia that is the most patriotic of all. So, I just want to be really careful when One Nation talks of patriotism, it’s only their kind of patriotism that they recognise.
Karvelas:
Right. So is it important then, that kind of people who are more progressive – obviously the political spectrum’s pretty wide – patriotism is reclaimed by groups like the Labor Party? Like Independents? Is that something you think has to happen?
Leigh:
Absolutely. I think Zali’s bang on. If you think about Australian values, they include egalitarianism, mateship and multiculturalism. And if you’re not proud of a multicultural Australia – really, you’re not proud of modern Australia. You’re harking back to a bygone age – a nation which has ceased to exist. So to be proud of Australia is to be proud of that rainbow of people who come to our citizenship ceremonies and make that really bold decision to step up and say, ‘I want to be an Australian citizen’.
Karvelas:
Yeah. I want to take you to something that Zali mentioned. So I’m like, zip it around here. Keeping it very interesting – gas. Do you think there should be a tax on the super profits of gas companies?
Leigh:
Well, Jim Chalmers changed the PRRT in 2023 so that the west coast gas projects paid PRRT this decade rather than next decade.
Karvelas:
But I mean that’s already happened?
Leigh:
But it’s important to be clear about what we did that brought billions of dollars of additional revenue into the government coffers and increased the number of PRRT taxpayers from 11 to 16. Those measures were significant in terms of making the PRRT system fairer. Our main focus now is on intergenerational fairness. As Zali mentioned, that was a big theme out of the Treasurer’s Economic Reform Roundtable last year and getting a set of productivity policies, including competition policies that will boost growth in the economy but also see more shared prosperity.
Steggall:
Well it’s interesting what Andrew says. And yes, the government and Jim Chalmers changed the PRRT in 2023. But the reality is since that every budget, the government has had to downgrade its revenue expectations because Treasury had given recommendations of a range to the government. But between 20 and 10 per cent of the profits should be caught by the PRRT. The government went with the least ambitious option of only 10 per cent and we’re now seeing every time, a downgrade of revenue expectations. At a time where we know gas multinationals are making record profit over a global crisis, it is time to admit the settings were not right. I asked the Treasurer in Question Time today and tighten up that expectation. Either amend the PRRT or introduce a gas export tax.
Karvelas:
Okay. Just a couple of other things I want to talk about. We’ve obviously got the ongoing war in the Middle East, which is having enormous ramifications for, well, oil prices and supply chains. You are an economist. You know how these things work. Have you seen anything worse than this?
Leigh:
This is a pretty significant shock and probably bigger than the 1970s oil shocks Patricia. We have been urging all parties to bring the conflict to an end. We recognise that the main objective of the United States was to reduce Iran’s chances of getting a nuclear weapon. And with that achieved, it’s time to be looking to an end to the conflict. Australia has sent assets over in order to help secure the safety of Australians in the region. But for the sake of Australian motorists, for the sake of those in the neighbouring countries, and of course, for the sake of those who are directly in the conflict zone, it is time to bring us to an end.
Karvelas:
Okay. There are lots of proposals on the table. Can you see us – 2 things being mandated; to work from home and also rationing fuel?
Leigh:
It’s not what we’re contemplating at the moment. Australia has a steady supply of fuel coming in. What we’ve seen is shortages driven by a spike in demand. So it’s important that your viewers know that we don’t have a challenge in supply right now. We’ve had 6 ships which haven’t been able to come through. But we’ve spoken – the Energy Minister has spoken to the suppliers who’ve said they have found alternative contracts. We’ve got the ACCC out there as a tough cop on the beat making sure that the fuel retailers don’t do the wrong thing, and indeed has announced an investigation in regional Australia around the supply of diesel. And we’ve also got the Fuel Supply Taskforce Coordinator, Anthea Harris, working in order to ensure that we get fuel supply coming through, co‑ordinating the work between the federal government and the states and territories.
Karvelas:
Okay. Working from home, fuel rationing – are these things that inevitably we will see? I mean, many people observing privately, some publicly that this does have the feeling of early 2020.
Steggall:
Well look, I think it’s an interesting reaction by the government. I think it’s trying very hard to say, ‘Don’t panic, we’ve got this under control’. That’s fine, but everything has been very reactive to the situation. What I think Australians are looking for is a proactive government in, I think, looking at this crisis and saying, ‘Look, we don’t control when it’s going to end, and it very well might go for longer than we would like’. We are heavily reliant on imported fuels. Ninety per cent of our fuel is imported. We know costs have already gone up. You know, primary producers are saying 25 per cent increases to diesel fuels in the region. That is considerable and will flow through to households.
So I think, I would urge the government to be proactive. You’re not going to be blamed for taking measures that may ultimately not be needed. But if you take additional measures now, we can soften the blow if this crisis or when this crisis expands and keeps having a real dire impact. Small businesses, primary producers and households are really under the pump and it’s only going to get worse as these flow on cost blowouts flow through the supply chain.
Karvelas:
Just a final question. The Reserve Bank Governor has bought a $2 million holiday home. I think it’s in Yamba, which is a beautiful place. On the same day it was, I think, completed it’s being reported as interest rates were increased. Is that a bad look?
Leigh:
It’s a matter for the Reserve Bank Governor.
Karvelas:
Is it a bad look, though?
Leigh:
I’m not going to comment on the Independent Reserve Bank. We have very clear lines, Patricia, between the government and the Reserve Bank. That’s a matter for the Reserve Bank Governor.
Karvelas:
Zali?
Steggall:
Look, I don’t like commenting on the personal decisions people make in relation to their homes and investments.
Karvelas:
Sure, but I mean people were freaking out on that day that they couldn’t even afford their mortgages?
Steggall:
I think a valid argument is looking at the fact that the Reserve Bank was split, that it was a very fine vote and the question of how much did the fuel – the increase in fuel prices take? How much was that taken into account in the decision? And now, how quickly are costs becoming unaffordable for households, small businesses and primary producers? What she chooses to do in her personal life I don’t think is fair game. Because if not, we will never have anyone prepared to take on these jobs that are very important for Australia.
Karvelas:
Yeah, of course. She has every right to buy a house but I suppose it was a difficult day for lots of people, so you can understand why people are talking about it. Thank you to both of you.
Leigh:
Thanks Patricia, thanks, Zali.