Patricia Karvelas:
I want to bring in my political panel for today. Andrew Leigh is the Assistant Minister of Productivity. Matt Canavan is an LNP Senator for Queensland. Welcome to both of you.
Andrew Leigh:
G’day Patricia, great to be with you.
Matt Canavan:
G’day Patricia.
Karvelas:
Matt Canavan, starting with you on this Climate Risk Assessment. Does any of it land on you? And you think, ‘oh, this is serious, this is real.’
Canavan:
Well, I’ve always said there’s an impact of industrialisation on the climate. I’ve just started reading through it, but the detail of it, when you get to the detail is pretty standard. The problem always with these reports is governments cherry‑pick the most extreme and outrageous scenarios to justify what they already want to do. I mean, it’s clear the government wants to increase its climate targets. Clear the government wants to increase carbon taxes on Australians. They want to massively expand the intrusion of government in your life. And so, they released this report – the government’s released this report to try and scare people into accepting such change. That’s what they’ve always done; governments have always done this. But if you go into the details, the report actually shows that there is not an increasing risk of cyclones to Australians. Finally, that’s out there. I mean, hopefully people say that because every time we get a cyclone coming, including earlier this year to Brisbane, we’re warned it’s because of climate change. And so, climate change is something we should respond to, but it’s not something we should panic over. And it’s clear the government is not doing much on climate change. The emissions are the same as what they were when they came to office 3 years ago. They believe this report. Why haven’t they taken any action?
Karvelas:
This report says that northern Australia, remote communities, outer suburbs, will be especially susceptible to climate change. I mean, you represent some of those communities. They are really, really at risk as a result of climate change, aren’t they?
Canavan:
Well, I probably prefer it if you just gave me the specifics, I could respond to that. I suppose one element I’ve read is that they’re saying the coastal…
Karvelas:
Yeah.
Canavan:
Well, they have. It’s a bit strange, they do, as I say, they do finally admit that cyclones aren’t increasing, they’re decreasing. Cyclones have been decreasing for decades in Australia, and they’re saying the extratropical lows are going to be less common. They’re the 2 main reasons and ways we get severe flooding in Australia, particularly in northern Australia. They’re decreasing or staying the same. I think they’re getting the other stuff from extra sea level rise; their sea level rise assumptions are 6 times, 6 times what we’ve experienced in the last few decades. That seems a little hard to fathom that that’s going to change so quickly. And as I say, I think usually what happens here, we’ve seen it with all the IPCC reports. When you go to the detail, when you go to the 3,000‑page scientific detail, it’s never, never as scary as a summary slide deck they prepare for the media.
Karvelas:
Let me bring in Andrew Leigh. Andrew Leigh, you’ve heard Matt Canavan’s take, and you know, everyone knows Matt Canavan wants the Coalition to pull out of net zero. You’re pretty open about that, Matt Canavan, so that’s your general view. But you know, Matt Canavan’s argument that the detail doesn’t demonstrate the top‑line part of this report?
Leigh:
Well Patricia, I will always be guided by the scientists rather than by blind ideology like the Coalition. This report again produces troubling evidence about what could lie ahead. It suggests that over a half a million Australians could be exposed to sea level rise. It suggests that heat injuries in Sydney could be up double under a one‑and‑a‑half‑degree warming scenario fivefold under a 3‑degree warming scenario. It points to the risk of increased extreme weather events. And of course, we’ve seen many of those increased extreme weather events from the bushfires of 2019–20 to Cyclone Alfred. There isn’t an extreme weather event these days where climate change hasn’t played some part in shaping it.
Canavan:
It just said cyclones are not.
Karvelas:
Okay let me just let Andrew Leigh finish…
Leigh:
That’s why…
Canavan:
Andrew…
Karvelas:
You had a clean go, so does Andrew Leigh…
Canavan:
Have you read the report?
Leigh:
That’s why we’re investing in adaptation.
Canavan:
Okay.
Leigh:
We put $3 billion towards adaptation. That’s why we’re focused on reducing emissions. Emissions are down since we came to government. Wind and solar generation are up 45 per cent. So, we’re investing in those clean energy options as well as working with the rest of the world, but also focused on adaptation, because clearly we won’t be able to get rid of all of the effects of dangerous climate change on Australians.
Karvelas:
Okay. So, follow‑up question for you – just like I did with you Matt Canavan. And I’m going to ask you Andrew Leigh, does this report – which really paints quite a frightening kind of vision of Australia into the future, put pressure on your government to be ambitious in the announcement you’ll make around the 2035 target?
Leigh:
Well, this is sound science, and we are an ambitious government for tackling climate change, the most ambitious in Australian history. We’re on track to meet the 43 per cent emissions reduction target by 2030. And we’ve received advice from the Climate Change Authority on our next emissions reduction targets for 2035, which we’ll be announcing in due course. We recognise that climate change is real. Unlike the Coalition, that had 22 energy policies and failed to land a single one, we’re working with industry in order to find a low‑carbon future which ensures that the Australian economy can continue to grow. We don’t face a choice between renewables and growth. Australia has the capacity to be a renewable energy superpower. We’re on that path creating good, clean energy jobs right across the economy. Whether that’s solar PV installers or whether it’s in the electric vehicle and battery industry.
Karvelas:
Alright. I’m going to park this issue because we’re about to talk to Josh Wilson, who’s the Assistant Minister about it. And I want to cover some other issues on this show today because there are many issues. Just to you Matt Canavan. Newspoll out today, you know, we’re far away from an election but still, it’s not a good result for the Coalition. Record lows in these polls. Does that show that the last couple of weeks, the comments by Jacinta Nampijinpa Price have been incredibly damaging to your brand?
Canavan:
Oh, look it hasn’t been our best fortnight I’m sure Patricia. Obviously, this poll is not all that relevant either given the election is 3 years away. As I’ve been saying since the election, the most important thing for us right now is not to follow the polls, it’s to rediscover what we believe in and what we should fight for. And in my view, linking into what we just discussed is one of the most important things for our country is to start running our policy settings for the benefit of Australians. We should be – our primary objective of our energy policy should be to reduce power prices for Australians, not reduce emissions. This government, the government currently…
Karvelas:
Okay…
Canavan:
Promised to reduce your power bills, they’ve gone up by 40 per cent since we signed up to net zero omissions, so we should scrap that.
Karvelas:
But the last couple of weeks have been consumed by the immigration debate?...
Canavan:
Well sure but…
Karvelas:
So, let me ask you this.
Canavan:
Okay, no. I’m happy to – yep, yep.
Karvelas:
Yeah. Because I’ve got a specific question on it actually, which I’ve been kind of exercised about. I’ve written a column today about this specific comment that I think was made by, well, I know was made by Tony Abbott and I’m wondering how much this is a sentiment. He says that the ever‑more diverse immigration program is a concern for him. Is it for you? Is it the kind of the type of people coming in?
Canavan:
No, it’s the number for me Patricia. I do think a key concern of any migration program is to ensure that new migrants to our country assimilate to our values, our principles, and we keep our country as it’s always been. It’s been a great country, it’s been a harmonious country, but I do believe the ability to do that of any nation is linked to the number of people you’re taking in each year. And right now, Australia’s welcome mat is being tested. We’ve always welcomed migrants from other countries, but if you’re taking in the number of people, as this government has done – the size of Canberra every year, it’s very, very hard to do that. And that’s why we’re seeing increasing concern about this among the Australian people. The government really just simply botched the re‑opening of our borders. We had to re‑open them after COVID. They’ve missed every target they’ve set for migration numbers. The Prime Minister promised to halve migration last year. Last year before the election, he said he’d halve migration. We don’t have the final net overseas migration numbers yet, but by arrival numbers, it would appear that he’s missed that target by around 100,000 people.
Karvelas:
Okay.
Canavan:
And so, that’s what’s testing the Australian people.
Karvelas:
Alright.
Canavan:
It’s putting a lot of economic pressure on our country. It is putting cultural pressure on our country, too…
Karvelas:
What’s the cult…No, I’ve got to pick you up here. Where’s the cultural pressure? I get the economic point you may make…
Canavan:
Well as I say, I want people to assimilate. I mean…
Karvelas:
Yep. What do you mean?
Canavan:
I want people to share our values. Well, look at the situation we’re seeing in crime statistics in Melbourne. I mean, some of that is clearly linked in migrant communities that are struggling to control the situation with so many people coming and the economic pressures…
You can’t blame migrants for crime in Melbourne?
Canavan:
Well, wasn’t. I mean, I read the other day, wasn’t there, there was a machete attack in a community? I mean, this is clearly having an influence on our country. Crime is having influence. The economic pressures we create from extra migrations are having an impact on our society, and so, that’s why so many Australians are concerned. But the government’s done nothing about that, so I…
Karvelas:
Okay, so I’ve got to challenge you…
Canavan:
I do believe that a part of Australian culture…
Karvelas:
When people hear you say that, Matt Canavan, I’m sorry to so rudely interrupt, but I have to make the point. When people hear you say that migrants are responsible for this kind of…
Canavan:
I didn’t say that. Hang on Patricia, I did not say that.
Karvelas:
Well, you kind of did…
Canavan:
I did not, I did not say that. I did not, don’t verbal me…
Karvelas:
Well, that’s what I heard, and my ears work pretty well.
Canavan:
I said that, I said that, well, I think when you bring in so many people and you have so much pressure on our economy, you get increases in crime, and we’re seeing that. I’m not blaming any particular people for that. It’s the government to blame here for not managing our borders properly.
Karvelas:
Okay, but crime is perpetrated by all sorts of people, isn’t it?
Canavan:
Sure, it is.
Karvelas:
What community are you referring to?
Canavan:
It is. Well as I say, I’m just saying it’s a consequence of having too many people come to this country at once.
Leigh:
Patricia, if you want to understand why the Liberal Party essentially holds no seats in city Australia, just go to Matt Canavan’s approach to climate change which is a key reason why the Teals picked up a whole lot of Coalition seats and held them, and migration. There is a relationship between migration and crime. Migrants, on average, do less crime than native-born Australians. What we’re seeing throughout Australia is strong support for multiculturalism. Nine out of 10 Australians believe multiculturalism is a success story. We’ve reduced migration from the record highs it was under the Coalition, getting it more in line, including working with universities on the student migration program. But to go back to a racially discriminatory migration scheme like we had under the White Australia policy…
Canavan:
Oh, I’ve never said that.
Leigh:
Would be madness, and that is the sort…
Canavan:
Hang on, I’ve never said that. I…
Leigh:
…Of thing that were countenanced by…
Canavan:
I’ve never said that. I said…
Leigh:
…Some members of the Coalition in the last few weeks. The demonising of particular groups, that is a deeply dangerous place to go. It was the Coalition that began phasing out the White Australia policy. It was Labor that finished the job. We should never go back to that place, but that’s the area that you get into if you get into the space of John Howard’s 1987 comments or the comments that have been made by Jacinta Price over recent weeks.
Karvelas:
Okay. Matt Canavan…
Leigh:
I was in a citizenship ceremony today. It was a beautiful experience, a small ceremony, but a wonderful one…
Karvelas:
They are special, but I just want to park that. Matt Canavan, you did mention migrants and a link to crime, though. That is not something that, you know, we heard…
Canavan:
Yeah, okay. I’m happy to clarify. I’m happy to clarify Patricia. I’m happy to clarify and thank you for the opportunity. I mean, the issue here is the economic pressures are being created by migration, that’s causing these issues. I did not blame any particular people for it.
Karvelas:
We didn’t talk about one particular ethnic group, but migrants is a particular framing…
Canavan:
Yeah. No, I did not. And so, I’m saying here the issue here is that because we’re taking way too many people, there’s a lot of homelessness pressures, there’s a lot of economic pressures on the Australian people that are clearly being exacerbated by the mismanagement of our borders.
Karvelas:
Okay.
Canavan:
That is leading to a number of different breakdowns in our social norms, including in increased crime. That’s not – I’m not saying that any particular migrant group, so thank you for letting me clarify, but…
Karvelas:
Yeah but you are saying migrant…but you are saying no…
Canavan:
…just to be clear…
Karvelas:
Just to be clear, you are also saying migrants more broadly. So, that is still a link that you’re making that I think it could be contested?...
Canavan:
No, I’m saying the migration program. Yeah, I’m saying the migration program Patricia. Okay, okay? Let’s just be very clear, okay?
Karvelas:
Okay. I’m not verballing you. You’re live on television Matt Canavan. People can make up their own minds. That’s the whole way we roll here.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Leigh:
Thanks Patricia.
Canavan:
Thank you.