Patricia Karvelas:
Well, for the government’s view let’s bring in the Assistant Productivity Minister. Andrew Leigh, welcome to the program.
Andrew Leigh:
Thanks Patricia, terrific to be with you.
Karvelas:
Well, very clear line there from Bob Brown, former Greens leader of course – Tasmanian. He says that the Prime Minister is the single impediment to good environment laws in this country. He’s criticised the government’s abuse, and he says there’s no rush and that he believes that Murray Watt will crash this week. What’s your response?
Leigh:
Patricia, Graeme Samuel handed down his report to the then Environment Minister Sussan Ley more than 5 years ago. He made very clear that the current environment laws aren’t working for the environment and they’re not working for business.
Approval times for projects that eventually get approved are too slow and the environment isn’t being appropriately cared for. So these laws are important and we will find a path through. I’m confident in the negotiating power of the Minister to either find a path through with the Coalition or with the Greens.
Karvelas:
Three years for native forests to be protected. Why? That’s such a long period of time.
Leigh:
Well, there’s a range of compromises being made in this bill as we weigh up the considerations that are in front of us. But we do know that these laws are beyond time, that we need a federal environment protection agency and that we need approvals which are streamlined, including for clean energy projects.
We’re currently having the situation where renewables projects are sometimes held up by environment laws, and that doesn’t make sense given the renewables transition is a powerful part of tackling climate change – our biggest environmental challenge.
Karvelas:
Okay, the Centre for Public Integrity who I’ll be speaking to a little later say the rush to pass the bill when the Senate committee has not even finalised its work it’s not been able to report, undermines public confidence and integrity in our democratic process. Now, I know you’re a big defender of democracy, so shouldn’t we let democracy do its job and properly scrutinise really consequential bills?
Leigh:
Patricia, the country has been debating these laws for the last 5 years…
Karvelas:
Not these specific laws as they’re drafted though?
Leigh:
Well, we have the Samuel report that came down 5 years ago. In the last term of parliament, then Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek brought forward a set of laws that would implement the Samuel Review.
And now we’re bringing forward laws into the current parliament which we believe have a strong prospect of passing. The contours of the debate are very familiar to everybody who’s been following it. And the delay means damage to the climate and damage to national productivity which is being impaired by the slow environmental approvals process we currently have in place. It’s just not fit for 2025.
Karvelas:
What’s the danger in waiting 3 months?
Leigh:
Well, we need to pass these laws. They are important for the environment and they’re important for the economy. The debate has been had and we’re talking about laws based on a report brought down 5 years ago.
Karvelas:
Treasurer Chalmers joined me on the show last week and he said, you know, he was pretty clear, clearer than anyone I’ve heard, that he prefers to do this deal with a party of government – the Coalition. At the same time, your side of politics – the government has been saying that the Coalition are climate change deniers, that they can’t be trusted on these issues. Why would you do a deal with people who you think are climate change deniers?
Leigh:
Well, I thought the excellent point that the Treasurer made last week was that for the greatest stability, you want to have a deal with a party of government. But if they’re not willing to come to the table, we’re also open to deal with the Greens.
We do worry about where the Coalition is at the moment. They have abandoned net zero, a policy which was put in place by Scott Morrison in October 2021, and a policy which is so important for how we are seen in the Pacific and in our broader region, as well as to the renewables transition. So, the Coalition are in a dark space when it comes to climate change.
Karvelas:
Yet, you trust them with our nation’s environment laws? You think that they are not to be trusted on these issues?
Leigh:
They remain a party of government in Australia, albeit a greatly weakened one and one which seems to be concerned about appeasing the far right rather than focusing on the centre and focusing on issues that mainstream Australians care about.
Karvelas:
Okay. Just on where this kind of lands, you prefer – you’re backing the Treasurer?
Leigh:
Of course.
Karvelas:
Of course! How about if someone disagrees with him? You prefer the deal with the party of government you say, but if you care about the environment wouldn’t you want to go down the road of trying to negotiate with the Greens?
Leigh:
But you don’t have to choose between the environment and the economy with these laws…
Karvelas:
You do kind of have to choose? You have to choose which pathway you really vigorously pursue?
Leigh:
But these are laws which are good for the environment and good for the economy. And many independent commentators have acknowledged that. Yes, we may have to make slightly different compromises according to which pathway we go down. But we’re not compromising on the core architecture of the bill, which is so important for preserving the natural environment and important for boosting productivity which under the Coalition was languishing in the doldrums.
Karvelas:
Now I have to ask you. The big attack, and you would have seen it in Question Time from the Opposition is that Chris Bowen is a part‑time Energy Minister. Now, you know, you’ve been around politics long enough to know that could really stick, potentially. The idea that we don’t have a Minister that’s really focused on lowering energy prices, does that worry you?
Leigh:
I think it’s an absurd critique.
Karvelas:
But how many people believe it?
Leigh:
Well, if you look at the last 10 people who have had this negotiating position which Chris Bowen will have over the next year, 7 of them were sitting government ministers, one was a Prime Minister and one was a diplomat. So, it is perfectly normal for a government minister to undertake this role.
This is a role which is incredibly important for our Pacific colleagues. And you saw Chris Bowen at the end of the talks in Brazil standing up alongside key representatives from the Solomons, from Vanuatu and from Palau – countries which are really affected by dangerous climate change. If you’re not serious about climate change, you are not taken seriously in the Pacific.
And we need to be engaging in the Pacific and we are. So, the Pacific strongly welcomes the role that Chris Bowen is playing. He will do it admirably. He’s a terrific negotiator and he will continue to focus also on the issues of climate, energy and energy in the domestic context, which are intertwined with what he’s doing.
Karvelas:
And is there a priority then?
Leigh:
He will be doing it all, and he’ll be doing it all through…
Karvelas:
It’s being established, at least they’re trying, it’s a sort of dichotomy between energy prices and then this climate global action and that Chris Bowen will not have his eye on that ball which is lowering energy prices?
Leigh:
Well, the Coalition seem to have missed the fact that millions of Australians with solar PV on their roofs understand which is that the cheapest form of new energy generation is renewables. Coal is extremely expensive, which is why the private sector isn’t investing…
Karvelas:
But our fuels are high regardless.
Leigh:
Well, what we’ve got is a coal‑fired power sector which is coming to the end of its useful life. Power stations built some 50 years ago, which would have to be replaced regardless. And the cost of replacing those power stations is one of the factors in energy prices. We are choosing to do the economically responsible thing, which is to replace them with the cheapest form of new energy generation.
Karvelas:
I have to ask, and this is not at all in your portfolio. But today, Chris Minns the NSW Premier has talked about housing. Obviously, there’s been another report today about housing in terms of renters, but he’s specifically been talking about the incentive payments to create more housing which your government has been very committed to and has really complained about the fact that you get the money at the end if you do it, rather than changing the model.
Is that something – and I know you’re not the lead minister – but it sort of strikes me that there might need to be adjustments to the way that these agreements with the states need to work to ensure that more housing is built?
Leigh:
Well, the states are our partners in the 1.2 million home target by the end of the decade. We’ve also got the Housing Australia Future Fund, which they’re working to implement alongside us. 21,000 new builds announced yesterday by the Minister, and that’ll mean for families, some of whom have been on the social housing wait list for a decade, that they get a home of their own. The Minister is also working on the approvals issues with states, territories, local councils, because we know that’s been an impediment to the abundance agenda Patricia.
Karvelas:
Thank you for coming in.
Leigh:
Thanks so much.