Ross Solly:
So we’ve been running this poll this morning on the Anika Wells expense account and I’ve been asking you, does it pass the kitchen table test? It certainly seems that it’s within the guidelines, but does that make it okay? I mean, is this the sort of thing that we’re comfortable with? And obviously, overwhelmingly many of you think, well, it’s time to revisit the guidelines. More than 80 per cent of you though, are also saying that you don’t think this passes the kitchen table test.
Well, I wonder what Andrew Leigh thinks. He’s the Member for Fenner and he’s a man who’s been renowned for his frugality over the years. Andrew Leigh, good morning to you.
Andrew Leigh:
Good morning Ross, great to be with you
Solly:
And good to be with you as well. Obviously, this is a huge distraction in the week when we’ve got this big social media ban coming in. But let’s talk about it. First of all, the listeners this morning overwhelmingly do not feel that this passes the kitchen table test. Are you comfortable with it Andrew Leigh?
Leigh:
Ross, I think it’s important to recognise what we’re dealing with here. This is a social media ban which is about saving kids’ lives. Since smartphones emerged, we have seen a significant increase in suicide deaths of young men and young women.
Solly:
I get all this. Can we circle back to that? I know we know all of that and I’m going to come back to that because that is important. But I just wanted to know first of all, with regard to the expense accounts – the charges that we’re getting here, the $100,000 for flights to New York for 3 people. The flying your family to Thredbo for a skiing trip. The flying your husband to Melbourne for the Grand Prix. The flying of your husband to cricket match. The bloody expensive dinners in Paris. I mean, do these all pass the kitchen table test Andrew Leigh?
Leigh:
Well, what’s at the heart of this Ross, is the meeting that took place in New York with a number of heads of state, including the Prime Minister of Fiji, the head of the European Union, which has led to other countries following Australia’s world leading social media minimum age laws. And those minimum age laws are about saving lives.
So, yes, it was important that Australia was represented at that event in New York because here in Australia, these laws will save lives. In Europe, they will save lives. In New Zealand, where they’re about to kick off, they’ll save lives. In Malaysia, they’re about to kick off, they’ll save lives.
Solly:
So, because that’s an important meeting, then that justifies the cost?
Leigh:
Well, as the Prime Minister said on Insiders yesterday, you go to a range of international meetings where people simply listen to the speeches. His view strongly of the event in New York was that it really did change minds. It really did have an impact.
We have a huge challenge of youth mental health in the smartphone age. Australia is leading the world and it is appropriate that Australia is part of those international conversations as other countries look to protect their young people. The stakes here are very high.
Solly:
Yes.
Leigh:
And you cannot step away from the stakes that we are dealing with in the reforms that will kick in in Australia on 10 December and the reforms which other countries are looking to. It is vital that we be leading that conversation internationally. It is vital that Anika Wells was there at New York for those important meetings and also the side conversations that took place.
Solly:
And I think there is some sympathy for the fact that she had to change her flight details, she had to miss the flight with the Prime Minister and book some last minute trips to New York. And we know that airlines will absolutely rip you off if you try and book a flight on the same day. I think there is some sympathy in that area.
I think where though it’s testing people’s patience though Andrew Leigh, is the revelation since that she flew her family to Thredbo and they all went skiing on the taxpayer dime, that she flew her husband to cricket matches, to the Grand Prix, that she went to Adelaide to coincide with her friend’s 40th birthday party. Those are the things that people today are thinking, ‘Well, hang on a minute. We know it’s within the guidelines, but is that the right thing to do?’
Leigh:
Ross, I don’t have all the details of all of the events you’ve talked about, but I do know in the case of Thredbo, Anika Wells was attending a Paralympic event. And one of the things we have sought to do strongly as a government is to raise the profile of Paralympians. You have a lot of great Paralympians doing wonderful work and simply not getting the recognition. So, when the Minister is there on a weekend spending time with Paralympians, I think that really is important for that sport. And that was the reason that she was in Thredbo.
Solly:
And is it okay to fly your family down to join you?
Leigh:
There are family reunion rules and Anika Wells’ travel worked within those rules and was fully disclosed, which is why these conversations are taking place right now. What’s crucial is that you follow the rules and you have full transparency. And I have seen no allegation from anyone that Anika Wells has failed to do that.
Solly:
Well okay, but there are some people saying that it might fit within the guidelines Andrew Leigh, but are the guidelines fit for purpose? I mean, do you have a – I mean, you’re in a lucky position I guess, where you’re here in Canberra – your family’s here. You don’t need to be away from family as much as others do. But do the guidelines, at the very least, need revisiting?
Leigh:
There is incredible pressure on politicians right now Ross, and you’re quite right that it is very fortunate for those of us who live in the ACT to be able to go home to our families each night. But I see the pressure on my parliamentary colleagues. I’m aware that the attacks on politicians – physical, verbal, the death threats – are increasing over recent years. I’m also aware that the pressures of being a minister are acute on a family with young children, and there are more families with young children than ever before. And that’s a good thing for the federal parliament.
But if those ministers cannot spend time with their children, then talented people will decide that they have to make a choice between politics and having a family. And that is bad for the nation if we simply self‑select parliamentarians who aren’t going to have kids. Anika Wells has chosen to combine career and family. She’s operated strictly within the rules. And so, if you want to have a conversation, make that about the rules. Don’t make that about one of the hardest working ministers in the parliament.
Solly:
No, I guess that’s what I am asking you – are the rules okay then? Or do you think that this might prompt a revisit of them Andrew Leigh?
Leigh:
The family reunion travel allows people to bring their families to Canberra and allows 3 trips a year. Most people do not use those 3 trips. Beyond that, many people who are outside Canberra are spending hundreds of nights a year away from their families. That is a huge impact on family life and we simply have to make a choice Ross.
Are we going to encourage people to come into politics who have young children? I see the class of 2025 with young kids growing up, and I’m acutely aware that the pressure that will come on them, particularly those who are further away. You think about the Western Australian MPs and the impact that has. We have to encourage people to combine career and family if we want to get talented people into politics.
Solly:
I guess some might say though, if you want to spend time with your family, you don’t have to go to the Formula One Grand Prix, you don’t have to go to the cricket. You could actually go home and spend time with your family.
Leigh:
We are talking about the Sports Minister, Ross. It is hardly a surprise that the Sports Minister spends time with Paralympians at Thredbo. It’s not a surprise that the Sports Minister goes to the Formula One. My goodness, it would be a scandal if the Sports Minister did not go to the cricket.
So, let’s bring this stuff into a bit of perspective. Let’s look at this from the holistic perspective of how we encourage talented people into politics rather than engaging in the sort of attack on Anika, which I think has not been a good thing in the way in which the debate has unfolded.
Solly:
Some suggestion – and I think Sam Maiden made this suggestion on Insiders, that the attacks might be coming from within Andrew Leigh. Do you think that’s likely?
Leigh:
I think Anika Wells is strongly respected across the caucus.
Solly:
Is no‑one trying to white ant her, you think?
Leigh:
…and across the parliament.
Solly:
No one’s trying to white ant her?
Leigh:
Look, I think people are really focused on these social media minimum age laws which will come into place in the middle of this week. They are supported by a strong plurality of Australians.
Solly:
So, no one’s trying to white ant her from within the party then?
Leigh:
No Ross. What these laws are doing is dealing with a real challenge that we have among mental health of young people. You encouraged me to come on the program this morning to talk about these laws and, you know, I’m keen to point out the fact that the research that Steve Robson and I did found a rise in people experiencing a mental disorder – young people experiencing a mental disorder of 50 per cent since smartphones came in. Rates of self‑harm are up more than 30 per cent. And all of these trends are worse for young women than for young men, which is what you would expect if social media was to blame.
Solly:
Yeah. Do you buy the argument from some that cutting off social media is going to cut them off from community, the people they want to be around? Do you buy that argument Andrew Leigh?
Leigh:
Well, I think what’s important is to have both an online community and an offline community. And so, this is allowing people to use those mental health services – they will continue to be accessible. But to cut off platforms such as Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, X, you know, these are platforms which are very much now moving away from a ‘engage with your friends’ model to a ‘best of the internet’ model.
The ‘best of the internet’ model is highly addictive. This is much more like an addictive television than an engaging telephone. And the way in which we are putting in place these minimum age laws is supported across the parliament and across the community. It will do good and it will save lives.
Solly:
Wednesday is the big day. We’ll talk about it more on that day. Andrew Leigh, appreciate your time this morning.
Leigh:
Thank you Ross.
Solly:
That’s the Member for Fenner, Andrew Leigh.