Solly:
So, it will be a bit of a distraction for many from what is going up on the hill, because the federal parliament is coming back early – coming back Monday and Tuesday, because they have these laws that they want to get through, clamping down on hate speech and also tightening up gun laws in Australia. It does look though, this morning, that it’s going to be very difficult indeed for the government to get these laws through. We already knew that the Liberal and National Party were not in favour.
The Greens yesterday said they definitely need some changes. David Pocock on this program less than an hour ago said that he has some very real worries with it and thinks there needs to be some reworking. So will the government rework the laws? Dr Andrew Leigh of course, the Member for Fenner – he joins us on the program. Dr Leigh, good morning to you and Happy New Year to you.
Leigh:
Happy New Year to you too Ross, great to be with you.
Solly:
So, is there anyone out there who actually thinks it’s a good idea to come back and try and rush this through in 2 days?
Leigh:
Well, the Coalition certainly believed that on the 18th of December when Sussan Ley put out a media release calling on us to recall parliament before Christmas to implement laws which would crack down on antisemitism.
Solly:
But they didn’t say do it in 2 days, did they? I mean, they did say come back, let’s discuss it?
Leigh:
On the 18th of December, they called for us to pass laws before Christmas. Now, when we’re bringing laws to the parliament, they’re saying that, in the case of Andrew Hastie, they think nothing needs to be done until 2027. Now, this isn’t sustainable Ross. We have had an extraordinary terrorist attack on Australian soil. We need to tighten hate speech laws and we need to tighten gun laws. These were people with hate in their heart and guns in their hands and these laws will deal with both of those issues.
They are laws which have the support of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry, and laws which do all directly deal with the issues of hate preachers. We’ve already seen as a result of these laws being introduced, indeed, one of the Nazi organisations disband. That indicates in my view, something about the strength of these laws in order in dealing with the hatred that’s out there in the community.
Solly:
The problem being though Andrew Leigh, is that these laws which I think everybody agrees it’s very important and these are issues that there does need to be attention given – if you can’t get them through the parliament you’ve got a problem haven’t you? So, I guess the question is there enough concern within the government now to maybe go back to the drawing board, even before Monday? Because it’s a big expense isn’t it? To bring all these politicians from around Australia back to Canberra for 2 days, if at the end of those 2 days the laws aren’t going to pass?
Leigh:
I’d say 2 things on that Ross. First of all, the first item of business for parliament will be a condolence motion. That is an important indication from the national parliament as to the depth of sorrow that is felt across the community. And an attack on Jewish Australians, which in substance was an attack on all Australians. The second is that in terms of passing laws through the parliament, this government and this Prime Minister has a pretty strong track record. I’ll take you back to the end of last year, where people were saying that our environment laws wouldn’t pass, that the Coalition wouldn’t back them, or the Greens wouldn’t back them.
Well, in the end, the Coalition dealt themselves out and we managed to settle a package with the Greens which saw benefits for business and benefits for the environment. This combating antisemitism package is an important package. It creates serious offences for hate preachers, it increases the penalties for hate crimes offences, and it sets up the new national gun buyback scheme to get more guns off our streets.
Solly:
I don’t think anyone disagrees with you about the importance of it. But again my question Andrew Leigh, if it’s not going to pass the parliament, is there any point in even bringing people back to do it? I mean why not go back to the drawing board, set aside more time for discussion and a better way to ensure that these very, very important laws actually see the light of day?
Leigh:
Well Ross, I’m still confident these laws will pass the parliament, and I think that history records that this Prime Minister has a pretty good record of getting laws through the parliament. There are important laws which get balance right between cracking down on hate speech without undermining freedom of speech. They ensure that somebody like one of the alleged Bondi terrorists isn’t able to hold a gun licence and 6 guns while being a non‑citizen. So, this is an important package of reforms which deal with some of the issues that led to the Bondi attacks and which flow directly out of the concerns that Jewish Australians and many other Australians have about purveyors of hate in our community.
Solly:
You say that the laws don’t undermine our freedom of speech, but it seems to be from the general outcry around the community that that is exactly what they will do; that all of a sudden our ability to have freedom of speech will be severely curtailed and that while, yes, there does need to be some changes made Andrew Leigh, that you may have gone too far on this and it may become problematic now for people to exercise their right to free speech.
Leigh:
Well Ross, certainly the conversations I’m having in my community are not suggesting that people think that hate preachers should be able to continue to do what they do. There are serious concerns about leaders seeking to radicalise children and about the way in which prohibited symbols have been used.
Solly:
But the laws go further than that though, don’t they Andrew Leigh? It’s not just about the hate preachers, it’s also about – I mean, there could be ramifications for media outlets, and I don’t want to be self‑serving here, but that media outlets might all of a sudden need to be much more careful about what they repeat from protests or the way they report issues.
Leigh:
Ross, there’s certainly carve‑outs around media. These are laws that are about ensuring that we have a framework that reduces the incitement of hatred to intimidate or harass. We’ve seen a rise in antisemitism, a rise in Islamophobia and the reports from the envoys for both antisemitism and Islamophobia have made recommendations to the government, and we’re acting on those recommendations. And I do again Ross, find it extraordinary that the Coalition was urging us to pass laws before Christmas and is now saying that they don’t believe that laws should be passed, in the case of Andrew Hastie, until 2027.
Solly:
The Greens suggesting that the hate speech should be broadened and on the text line, someone says the wording of the new laws about hate speech should make it apply to all cultures, not just antisemitism. Do you expect that that will be one change that you might make – that the government might make Andrew Leigh?
Leigh:
Well, the first priority has been cracking down on antisemitism and racial hatred. And so that’s why that’s the focus here. We’re clearly open to a conversation on that. As you recall, the main conversation through the 2010s was around the Coalition seeking to weaken our racial vilification laws. It has been Labor that stood up against those attempts to weaken racial vilification laws. Labor has always stood alongside minority groups – whether that’s racial vilification, religious vilification or vilification on the grounds of sexual identity. So, we’re up for that conversation.
Solly:
I asked Katy Gallagher this question yesterday and I’ll ask you the same thing, Andrew Leigh. If it does look like you might need to take a couple of extra days to do it, it’s worthwhile, isn’t it? I mean, 2 days does seem – and as you’ve just said, the first day will be taken up with condolence speeches. So basically, trying to condense this all into one day. Why not extend it out for the whole week? Why not give everyone a chance to have their say, to have a proper opportunity for people to nut this out? I mean, these are our elected representatives. They deserve a right to have their say, to reflect the concerns of their community. You’re not really doing that in one day of sitting. Why the rush? Why not extend it out?
Leigh:
Well Ross, I’d also make the point that we’ve got the intelligence committee conducting an inquiry at the moment. It’s called for public submissions. There is that opportunity for people to have their say through the intelligence committee call for submissions, which includes people from both sides of the parliament. The hearings next week, the parliament sittings next week, are really going to focus on moving through a package of reforms on which the Opposition has been consulted.
The Prime Minister has been meeting regularly with the Leader of the Opposition. They have been kept in the loop throughout this process as this package of reforms have been developed. It’s a package of reforms that responds to inquiries which have been out there. So, I don’t think the debate on this is new, and I do think the need is urgent.
Solly:
Just on one other issue at 10 to 9 Dr Andrew Leigh, that social media changes, and we’re hearing today 4.75 million accounts have closed down. Paul in McKellar says, ‘In my extended family, the 13 and 14‑year‑olds are still on social media. Most kids have multiple accounts, and it’s likely the platforms themselves created many fake underage accounts. So, be cautious about citing numbers of accounts removed, which does not equate to the number of children’. But Paul says, ‘It’s still a great policy change for future generations’. I have to say Andrew Leigh, in my house, it’s been brilliant. It’s absolutely changed everything, and I don’t know what it’s been like in your place, but do you think the government, though, are you taking this as a win?
Leigh:
We certainly are Ross. Jonathan Haidt has been one of the main campaigners around youth mental health. He says that ‘the biggest news of 2025 regarding kids’ online safety was Australia’s new social media age limit law’. And he’s noted that there’s a bunch of countries around the world; Brazil, Denmark, European Union nations, France, Indonesia, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, which are looking or have announced that they are going to put in place social media age limits. This is about allowing kids to be kids. It won’t have perfect enforcement, just as minimum drinking age laws don’t have perfect enforcement. But it’s already making a difference, getting kids off their devices and out to the great outdoors.
Solly:
Your kids were already off devices, weren’t they?
Leigh:
We have a rule in our house where you don’t get a mobile phone until 15, which means that my kids are almost always the last in their social group to get a mobile phone. And it means that they’re able to look around and, in some cases, see their friends at parties sitting on the corner on a device rather than chatting with friends. It changes the perspective. And I think in this case, the minimum age law is empowering parents, many of whom have known what to do but just have felt that they’re boxed in because their kids say to them, ‘Well, all my friends are on these platforms. I need to be on it, too’. Well, now the government has said there’s a minimum age. It won’t have 100 per cent enforcement, but it will have 100 per cent impact on changing norms across the community.
Solly:
And as I’ve said, I think it’ll be the next generation who will really benefit from this because when that initial question is asked, ‘Can I have a phone? Can I have a smartphone?’ Parents will be able to say, ‘No, you can just have a dumb phone. That’s all you need’. Andrew Leigh, appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.
Leigh:
Likewise, thanks Ross.
Solly:
Dr Andrew Leigh, the Member for Fenner on ABC Canberra Breakfast.