Ross Solly:
Congratulations to Delta Goodrem who has qualified for the final of Eurovision. And Andrew Leigh I mean, we love celebrating Australian success stories and this is building up, Andrew Leigh to a wonderful success story for Australia. Am I right?
Andrew Leigh:
I think it is Ross, it’s looking very, very exciting.
Solly:
Has Eurovision fever taken over the Leigh household this morning, or are you trying to keep a lid on things?
Leigh:
We’re just managing to keep a lid on things but, you know, it is basically at simmering point as you say Ross.
Solly:
Yeah. Well, you’ve got to wait now for the weekend to see if she can go all the way. Andrew Leigh, thanks for joining us. Of course, Member for Fenner, Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury. I want to talk to you about the Coles decision yesterday and what the ramifications might be for the supermarkets, but also for shoppers. But can I just get your response to the Budget reply speech last night from Angus Taylor? Some pretty strong initiatives there on immigration and also on bracket creep.
First of all, with immigration and a lot of people jumping on to say the text that I read out before the news when someone said, ‘Oh, it only takes 4 and a half months or 4 to 8 months to then qualify to become a citizen’ – that’s actually not correct. Once you’ve got 4 years of residency I understand, then it takes 4 to 8 months. So it is a long process. But is Angus Taylor tapping into something of general concern out there, do you think Andrew Leigh, about the number of immigrants that are coming into Australia and, in his own words, accessing up to 17 different forms of welfare payments?
Leigh:
Well Ross, here we’re talking about people who’ve been living in Australia for decades, people who might have British citizenship but have become Australian permanent residents and who are as much a part of the Australian community as you or I. Those people are being told by Angus Taylor that they’re second‑class Australians and I think they would regard themselves as being pretty regular Australians.
Solly:
But Angus Taylor says he’s been stopped in the street by everyday Australians who are saying to him, ‘How can this be fair? How can it be right that people are coming in and being able to, almost straight off the bat, access some form of welfare payment?’
Leigh:
Oh, it’s just not right that you can do it straight off the bat Ross. I mean, you can access welfare payments if you’re a permanent resident or an Australian citizen. And, you know, frankly all this is going to do is to prompt a group of people who have been here for decades to now make the choice to become Australian citizens. I think that if more people become Australian citizens, that’s a terrific thing. But I don’t think there’s a problem out there that Angus Taylor is solving. He is just responding to the fact that One Nation is coming hard at him and he’s going to learn the hard way you can’t out One Nation, One Nation.
Solly:
Well, but just on that. I mean, if we look at the election result in Farrer, Angus Taylor and the Coalition have obviously tapped into something. Maybe it’s the Labor Party, Andrew Leigh that’s not reading the room here on what Australians are thinking? If One Nation believe they’re on a winner with immigration. Angus Taylor obviously wrapping his arms around this as an issue. Do you think they might be more in touch with what everyday Australians are thinking about immigration than what maybe you are?
Leigh:
Ross, we’ve brought migration down 45 per cent from its post‑pandemic peak and we’re working really hard to train more Australians for the jobs that Australia needs. But we do have skill shortages. We’ve got half our doctors, almost half our nurses, nearly a third of our construction workers that were born overseas. Australia has traditionally used migrants to fill skills shortages in our economy.
One of the ways in which we’re looking to build more homes is with migrant workers. You don’t have to go far on a building site before you run into somebody who was born overseas. And what Labor is doing is alongside a historic investment in skills, is making sure our migration program is right and there were further refinements to that in the Budget which will even better ensure that we target the skills that Australia needs. Migrants aren’t just mouths to feed, they’re muscles to build, minds to inspire.
Solly:
On the other big initiative he announced last night, and you would know a lot of Australians are very, very annoyed about bracket creep and it captures more Australians every year. And there’s a strong feeling that all the promises that your party made on Tuesday night will be eaten up pretty quickly by bracket creep. Angus Taylor’s identified an issue here. He thinks that by the end of a first term Coalition government, Australians could be $1,000 better off. I think you would have to concede, would you not Andrew Leigh, that bracket creep is a problem and it needs to be addressed when we look at our tax system?
Leigh:
Well Ross, what we’ve made clear is that we’re delivering tax cut after tax cut. We’ve delivered 5 tax cuts – costed and at the same time managed to put key investments into infrastructure that Australia needs, including big infrastructure investments for the ACT in the last Budget.
Solly:
Yeah, but Andrew Leigh unless you are prepared to tackle bracket creep it all gets eaten away pretty quickly?
Leigh:
Unless you’re prepared to cost your policies it is very unclear who’s going to pay for Angus Taylor’s policy.
Solly:
But do you think bracket creep is fair? Do you think the way it works, do you think Australians are getting a good deal out of that at the moment?
Leigh:
Governments make a decision at every budget, Ross, about how we’re going to deliver tax relief and how we’re going to pay for the services Australia needs. What Angus Taylor did last night was to say, ‘I’m going to index the tax brackets. It’s going to cost a bomb, and I’m not telling you how it’s going to be paid for’…
Solly:
But, but…
Leigh:
So you need to look at the record of the Coalition. They’re going to come after public servants, they’re going to come after welfare payments…
Solly:
But on the general welfare payments, on the general merit or lack thereof of the way bracket creep eats away every year. Do you think that system is working well at the moment or does it need to be addressed in any wholesale approach to tax reform?
Leigh:
Look, in the 125 years since Federation Ross, one government – the Fraser government chose to index the tax brackets for a couple of years and then backed off. This is not a policy that is widely adopted around the world. What we do is we make careful judgments about what we can afford to pay for at every budget.
Solly:
Alright.
Leigh:
We’ve delivered successive rounds of tax cuts. But if you’re going to put a policy like this in place, Angus Taylor and his team said before the Budget reply it would be costed and clearly it hasn’t been costed and we don’t know how he’s paying for it. Very likely there’s a lot of Canberra public servants who’d lose their jobs to pay for that policy.
Solly:
Well, after 7:30 we’ll talk to Nick Tyrrell, who is going to be the Liberal Party candidate for the Senate at the next election. We’ll get his take on it and see if he thinks it’s going to be a tough sell or an easy sell for Canberra voters. Just on the Coles decision yesterday, Andrew Leigh. So 13 breaches they were found guilty of. I understand that there’s a $50‑million‑dollar penalty for each so they could really be up for $650 million. Would you encourage a big fine just to discourage others to go down this line?
Leigh:
Ross, I’m a former High Court associate so I’m very aware of the separation of powers. Those courts will make their decisions independently but they’ll do so based on penalties which are 10 times higher than they were when Labor came to office. We’ve taken the maximum penalty for anti‑consumer conduct from $10 million to $100 million. We’ve given the competition watchdog more resources to go after misconduct and we’ve given them additional powers such as cracking down on shrinkflation.
Solly:
Would you say yesterday’s announcement or yesterday’s result is a good outcome for consumers?
Leigh:
A huge win for consumers, Ross. The ACCC worked really hard on this, and it just affirms the basic principle that a discount should be a real saving, not a pricing trick and that you should be able to trust the ticket on the shelf. So it’s an important message not just to Coles, but also to all big businesses across Australia. You’ve got to do the right thing by your consumers.
Solly:
Is there any worry at all, Andrew Leigh, that the knock‑on effect from this might be that discount stores might be more reluctant to provide discounts? Worried that there might be some sort of clause there or some area where they might get into trouble. Could it end up costing consumers more, do you think?
Leigh:
I think quite the opposite Ross. I think we’re going to get discounts which are real, rather than discounts that are illusory. What we saw in this case was allegations by the ACCC that prices had been spiked temporarily and then brought down in an illusory discount. What this says to firms is you’re welcome to offer discounts, they just have to be real discounts. And that’s what we all thought we were getting before the case, before the revelations.
So I think this is a really good measure. We will continue to bring in more measures to parliament to protect consumers. We’ve passed a bill through the Senate which responds to exceptional circumstances. We’re continuing to work to make the system stronger for consumers and also to get more competition and dynamism.
Solly:
Andrew Leigh, appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.
Leigh:
Ross, can I just say one more thing? The decision by Coles was a decision by Coles executives and I would really urge everyone who’s shopping at Coles over the weekend not to take it out on the Coles workers. They have nothing to do with how these prices are set. But we have seen sometimes in the past, people giving Coles workers an earful for decisions that have absolutely nothing to do with them.
Solly:
That’s actually a really good – that’s a very good message. Because people have – it’s the same at fuel stations. People go in and give people working behind the counter an absolute gob‑full.
Leigh:
Yes.
Solly:
They don’t make the decisions, it comes from much higher up than them. Andrew Leigh, it’s a very good point to finish on. Thank you.
Leigh:
Thank you Ross, take care.
Solly:
That’s Dr Andrew Leigh. He’s the Member for Fenner and Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury.