Ross Solly:
Look, the problem in Australia at the moment for e‑bikes, et cetera, is there’s no consistency and there are certain cities you can go into where there’s a very good chance you’ll see them flying around everywhere. The government has now said, ‘We’ve had enough. We want consistency and we want unsafe e‑bikes, e‑scooters, all of these sorts of things, e‑skateboards, we want them taken off the road.’
Andrew Leigh is the Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury, and he joins us this morning. Andrew Leigh, good morning to you.
Andrew Leigh:
Good morning, Ross, great to be with you.
Solly:
Thank you for joining us. Do we know – do we understand what we consider to be safe at the moment when it comes to these types of vehicles – e‑bikes, e‑scooters, e‑skateboards?
Leigh:
Well, Transport Ministers have set a standard which is an international standard that requires e‑bikes to not go faster than 25 kilometres an hour and not have more than 250 watts of power and not be able to be modified. And as the ACCC looks to make an overall safety standard, it will obviously be looking at that standard that the Transport Ministers have put in place for what can be ridden on our roads. This is about what can be sold, and obviously the 2 need to be consistent.
Solly:
Are there a lot of – I mean, you go to different cities, Andrew Leigh, as I’m sure you do, around Australia, and you can see the different types that are on the roads and the different rules that are in place. Are there particular areas of concern?
Leigh:
Yeah, I mean I think if you’re zooming around the streets at the pace of a motorbike, then you should have a motorbike licence. The fact is if you’re riding a bicycle you need to be operating at roughly bicycle speeds and that’s important for your own safety, but also for that of the community.
We’ve seen accidents and even deaths resulting from e‑bikes and the federal government has worked with states and territories. I took this to the Consumer Ministers meeting in Darwin last week, and this is now announcing a piece of work that the ACCC will do, reporting early next year.
Solly:
So, you have agreement from all the states and territories on this?
Leigh:
That’s right. Yes, there’s real concern among my counterparts – Consumer Ministers and states and territories about the impact that e‑bikes are having, including Tara Cheyne who’s the ACT Consumer Affairs Minister and colleagues are keen for the ACCC to get this standard in place soon.
Solly:
And what about bikes, et cetera, that are out there at the moment that already would not fit the ACCC standard? Will they become illegal, Andrew Leigh, and will police have the powers to remove them or – it’s not going to be grandfathered, is it?
Leigh:
So this is about what gets sold, Ross. In terms of what’s out there, then that’s the decision of the Transport Ministers that they’ve already made saying they’re going to use this international standard as the basic guide for what’s appropriate on roads and then states and territories have committed to using that as their benchmark in terms of who gets pulled over and what bikes are taken out of commission.
Solly:
So that will be a different matter, that will have to be taken up at a police level or whatever, if they want to crack down on it?
Leigh:
Oh, states and territories are already doing that, Ross.
Solly:
Yeah.
Leigh:
They’re acting on this. This is about stopping more bikes coming into the country and of course, as you mentioned there’s other e‑micromobility devices – the e‑scooters, the e‑skateboards and those things that are basically a battery and a wheel, so we need to make sure we’ve got the rules for all of those as well.
Solly:
How do we get the balance right, Andrew Leigh, in terms of we’re trying to encourage people, and there are incentives in place for people to take up battery‑powered, you know, scooters, et cetera, to get more cars off the roads, et cetera. How do we get the balance right? Is there a balance issue here? I know you’re saying that these are dangerous, but is there a danger that people are going to then turn away from the chance to actually go down this path, this direction?
Leigh:
Ross, I don’t think it’s hard. Labor supports e‑bikes, we don’t support unsafe e‑bikes. They shouldn’t be high‑powered, they shouldn’t be high‑speed, they shouldn’t be able to be able to be easily modified. What the international standard says is they’ve got to be pedal‑assist rather than being able to simply turn on the motor and go without putting in any energy on your own. Those sort of standards are what’s been applied by Transport Ministers, and they’re some of the sort of things the ACCC will consider as it looks to craft a safety standard for what can be sold.
Solly:
Are we playing a bit of catch‑up here? On the text line, this listener says, ‘If only the federal politicians had adopted the EU standards as a basis for allowing importation of sub‑standard devices and batteries’. Are we playing a bit of catch‑up here, Andrew Leigh?
Leigh:
Well that is the standard, EN 15194 is what the Transport Ministers have adopted in terms of what can be ridden. Obviously, the technology is moving fast here, Ross. We’re supporters of people using bikes to get around. Canberra has Australia’s best network of bike paths, and I think it’s terrific when people are on those bike paths. Not only do you get out in the community but also taking some of the pressure off the roads, so every person who’s on a bike is another person who’s not in a car. So there’s a benefit to all of us, we just need to make sure that these bicycles are safe.
Solly:
And this is from Greg. Greg says, ‘It’s a shame we can’t have e‑bikes integrated into our transport system. They are an affordable, zero emissions way of transport. Perhaps licensing younger riders and allowing them on suburban roads?’, asked Greg. I mean, is that an option?
Leigh:
Yeah, I don’t think the federal government’s looking at a separate licensing system, that would be very complicated. What we’re looking at instead is how we regulate these unsafe e‑bikes. There’s a lot of Canberrans getting around on compliant e‑bikes, those that are not high‑powered, not high‑speed, not easily modified. They’ll be able to continue to ride their e‑bikes in comfort. In fact, they’ll have now the protection of knowing that they won’t have people zooming past them on unsafe bikes potentially causing accidents.
Solly:
All right. It’s a quarter to 9 on the Breakfast show. All clear on the roads, currently sitting on around 2 degrees in the city. Just on a couple of other quick issues while I have you here, Andrew Leigh. Of course earlier this week, we had 2 days of Senate inquiry into your new gambling laws. Some of the stories that came out of there were pretty horrific. Are you happy, Andrew Leigh, personally with the new laws that your government’s trying to push through here? Because it seems besides the gambling industry themselves, there’s not too many people who think that they’re fit‑for‑purpose?
Leigh:
Well Ross, this is the biggest crackdown on gambling that Australia’s ever seen and I would urge all parties to support that. Now you can argue in the parliament as to whether you’d like to push things a little bit more, but the idea that we do nothing I think is untenable.
Solly:
But some people are saying that the new laws are actually worse, that you’re actually not making it harder and in fact there’s still so many ways for the gambling industry to reach out and pull people in and suck them in, like we heard so many terrible stories this week?
Leigh:
Ross, I haven’t heard any credible critic say that these laws would make things worse. This is a restriction around gambling ads, a restriction around the endorsements that can be put on the back of players’ jerseys, it goes to the way in which BetStop operates. This is a significant strengthening of our laws.
Now I understand people will have their views as to whether we might go further than that, but the notion that you would block this really important historic reform – the biggest step forward in cracking down on gambling, doesn’t make much sense to me.
Solly:
Why not just make some little changes? Like, a lot of people are saying okay, you know, there’s going to have to be advertising of some form. Why not, instead of making it that people have to opt out of receiving these ads, Andrew Leigh, why not make it so that people opt in so that if they want the ads they have to opt in so they receive the ads? Why not just do that – that’s not hard, is it?
Leigh:
Well, it’s not just an opt out, Ross. I mean there’s instructions around gambling ads appearing before and after sporting matches, there’s also restrictions in terms of the in‑game endorsements that you would see. Peta Murphy’s report was an extremely important piece of work –
Solly:
Yeah, sure was! There were 32 recommendations of which your government’s adopted 4!
Leigh:
It went to a wide range of issues. These reforms go to a broader range of issues and deal with a range of questions that weren’t tackled in Peta Murphy’s report. Now, reasonable people will differ on this but I don’t think it is a reasonable position to say that we should do nothing and –
Solly:
No, no. But why not just do something like give people the option to opt in to receive these ads? It’s not difficult, it’s not rocket science, you have to opt in if you want to receive these ads. At the very least, why not do that? Then people, you know, if you don’t know what you’re missing then you’re not missing it, are you?
Leigh:
Ross, I don’t like seeing gambling ads on TV, but I think you need to recognise that this is an important package of reforms –
Solly:
I get that, but I’m just asking a straight question here, Andrew Leigh – opt in instead of opt out. It’s one simple measure that you could do?
Leigh:
Look, I understand and there have been 1,000 questions of this kind – ‘Why don’t you make this tweak, why don’t you make that tweak?
Solly:
Yeah, so why don’t you?
Leigh:
They all come from well‑meaning purpose, but what is important to recognise is that this is a big package of reform and in politics, you often have a choice between voting for something that makes the world better versus keeping the status quo. It unquestionably makes the world better. I would urge those saying that we ought to go further, vote for this package, and then continue to your reasonable advocacy.
Solly:
Yeah. Do you think Peta Murphy would be proud of what you’re doing here? You know, she’s no longer with us unfortunately, but do you think she’d be proud of your response to her 32 recommendations?
Leigh:
I think Peta Murphy would be asking us to go further, but she is also somebody who understands that a lot of politics is about compromise and is about finding a medium approach.
Solly:
Alright.
Leigh:
I worked very constructively with Peta over many decades on many things, and I know that she would be in favour of getting something done rather than getting nothing done.
Solly:
Alright. One other quick issue. Mark Parton, Nick Tyrrell and David Pocock, amongst others are urging the Commonwealth to look at money that it’s provided to the ACT government for part of the big projects, like the light rail for example, et cetera. They want you, or they’re urging you to investigate whether that money has been allocated fairly or whether there’s been any procurement problems. Do you think that would be a good idea, because the Commonwealth does give a lot of money to the ACT?
Leigh:
Look, that money is all carefully audited. There are already appropriate processes in place.
Solly:
So was the money that was supposed to go to Campbell Primary, by the way.
Leigh:
Well, there’s been an inquiry into that. In terms of the action on the CFMEU, we’ve taken tougher action on the CFMEU than any government in history.
Solly:
Alright.
Leigh:
One of the Prime Minister’s first actions when he became leader was to expel John Setka from the Labor Party. The CFMEU has been placed into administration and the administrator is carefully monitoring the actions of that union.
Solly:
Alright. Andrew Leigh, we’ll leave it there. I appreciate your time this morning.
Leigh:
Thanks Ross.
Solly:
That’s Andrew Leigh on a few things there, including the crackdown on e‑bikes and his response as well to the Parton, Tyrrell, Pocock request for an examination of Commonwealth money coming to the ACT.