Ross Solly:
So, Dr Andrew Leigh is the Member for Fenner. He’s also the Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury and he joins us on the program this morning. Dr Leigh, good morning to you.
Andrew Leigh:
Good morning Ross, great to be with you.
Solly:
And you as well. What did you make of the rallies around Australia yesterday?
Leigh:
Well, I think it was really troubling Ross, to see these Neo‑Nazis standing up on platforms decrying Australian multiculturalism and missing the fact that except for Indigenous Australians, all of us are either migrants or the children of migrants. Migrants aren’t just mouths to feed, they’re muscles to build and minds to inspire. And successive generations of migrants have greatly enriched Australia, which is one of the world’s most well‑functioning multicultural democracies.
Solly:
Yeah. And that point has been made by a number of listeners this morning that in fact nearly all of us are indeed migrants. The fact though, Andrew Leigh, that there were thousands marching and they were small, spread right around the country. Yes, it’s easy to say, well they’re Neo‑Nazis or they’re racist, but at the heart of it, does it identify a bigger problem?
Leigh:
We’ve always had anti‑migrant sentiments bubbling as an undercurrent in Australia. You think back to the Lambing Flat riots or the Cronulla riots. These things have happened in the past in Australia. But you know, it’s always disappointing to see people demonising some of the most vulnerable in Australia. I was really pained to hear interviews with migrants who felt personally at risk from those demonstrations. And of course, we saw the direct attacks on police officers. Now the fact is Ross, migration has been a great benefit to Australia. You think about Victor Chang, the heart surgeon, Karl Kruszelnicki, the Swedish‑born science communicator or biologist Gus Nossal.
Solly:
Yeah, for sure.
Leigh:
People like Frank Lowy and Ruslan Kogan. You know, we’ve had huge benefits from the successive waves of migrants that have come to Australia.
Solly:
Absolutely. But obviously when you have the number of people marching yesterday and yes, you know, we’re not talking millions and millions. But there were enough there for surely as a government, you to start thinking, okay are we not selling the message? Are we not, are too many people out there strongly of the belief that all the ills in Australia right now are being caused by migrants?
Leigh:
I think we need to continue making the case for modest levels of migration. Of course, we’ve reduced migration levels from the record high as it was when we came into office and we understand that you need to get the balance right. But the solutions to Australia’s housing problems lie in greater housing supply. Solutions to congestion on our roads lies on dealing with that problem directly through road building and getting the pricing system right.
All of these challenges aren’t going to be solved by stopping migration. We’re not going to deal with climate change and deforestation through migration policies. We need smart policies in those areas which is exactly what we’re delivering.
Solly:
Is there a danger, Andrew Leigh, that by, as you have now done, by labelling the anti, the rallies as being full of Neo‑Nazis and racists, that you are ignoring what is a deeper issue though, and that people, for example, this is Tony from Conder; ‘My concern is that we lack any kind of population plan. Here in Canberra, the government constantly talks down to us like wayward children. Children lecturing us on the need to accept a decline in living standards to meet the city’s ever‑growing population. Population growth is assumed without questioning whether it’s environmentally sustainable or positive from the perspective of the people living here. Surely, it’s time for a different approach.’
I mean it is a conversation for a mature nation to have, isn’t it, Andrew Leigh? And by labelling those who are concerned about it as being racist or Neo‑Nazi, is it avoiding having what some want to have as a conversation?
Leigh:
Well Ross, I think you are slightly stretching what I said. I made the simple factual point that those rallies were addressed by Neo‑Nazis. There is certainly a reasonable conversation to be had around migration. The government is up for that and that’s why we’ve sought to scale back migration from the levels that was at under the Morrison government. But we also recognise the innovative power of ethnic diversity.
Diverse cities are more productive. Diverse boards of directors make better decisions. The most innovative companies are diverse. Migrants are more likely to win Nobel Prizes and migration has really helped our exporting potential through the networks that migrants bring. So, there’s a huge benefit to Australia in terms of productivity and prosperity. We need to get that mix right. And that’s one of the things that the government has been working on assiduously to ensure that we get the mix between skilled, family reunion and refugee migrants right. And that’s the conversation, the detail at which we need to be having that conversation.
Solly:
The biggest noise that seems to be coming out from the groups who marched yesterday was that they’re blaming immigrants for the fact that we can’t get housing. Now we do have a housing crisis in Australia, everyone accepts that. Is it fair, Andrew Leigh, to lay the blame on our immigration rate for the fact that many can’t get a house?
Leigh:
No. I mean, you’re seeing house prices rising in countries with higher and lower levels of migration. What we need to do in Australia is to recognise that some of the migrants that come are working in the building sector. I talk to builders who are crying out for skilled migrants to come and work as electricians or plumbers or brickies. We need to get that mix right.
And of course, we need to build more homes. We’re making a record investment in social and affordable homes. And Clare O’Neil has been engaging with states, territories and local councils about the regulatory thicket that is stopping approvals for getting homes built. Work on modular housing is certainly another area that’s a focus for the government and that’s one sector where you may well find factory‑built homes needing more migrant workers in order to accelerate housing supply.
Solly:
How do we change the narrative then, Andrew Leigh? You said there, you know, you put into plain words this morning what the benefits are to our community by a good, measured migration program. How do we, though, convince those thousands out there who are absolutely convinced that they are the root of the problem, that they are wrong? I mean, where do we start with this education program?
Leigh:
Ross, when I look at the surveys, I see an Australia that is strongly supportive of migration. Yes, we saw rallies in our streets yesterday and yes, that was disappointing to have those extreme views countenanced. But it’s also the case that many Australians are descended from migrants. That includes my 3 boys. It is the case that many Australians work alongside migrants and see the benefits that they bring to the community.
It’s also the case that Australian neighbourhoods have quietly done a remarkable job of bringing into our community so many successive waves of migrants from different countries and welcoming them into Australia’s social fabric. One of my favourite jobs as a member of parliament is to preside over a citizenship ceremony and see that strong commitment to Australian values demonstrated by new migrants who are now becoming new citizens.
Solly:
I’ll finish with a couple of texts. Mike says ‘The only issue with immigration is that it is used as a cover to pretend the economy is growing when we’ve had consistent per capita reduction in GDP. Productivity is the real issue and proper taxation’. And Owen says ‘It’s not about racism. It’s actually about both major parties being captured by big business, insatiable appetite for more and more consumers’. Do you want to finish with a comment on those 2 texts, Andrew Leigh?
Leigh:
Well, I think it’s absolutely right that we need to get productivity moving again. We had the worst decade of productivity growth in that decade leading up to 2020, so we’re doing a power of work on that. The Economic Reform Roundtable was focused around that. And that means more skills, it means more opportunities for Australians and it means better business dynamism. We’re doing a lot in the area of competition policy and getting rid of those non‑compete clauses. All of that is about building a more productive and dynamic economy. And that’s a big focus for me as the Assistant Minister for Productivity and a big focus for the Albanese government.
Solly:
Dr Andrew Leigh, appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.
Leigh:
Thanks so much, Ross.
Solly:
That is Dr Andrew Leigh, the Member for Fenner; also the Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury.