Saskia Mabin:
Andrew Leigh, welcome to the program.
Andrew Leigh:
Thanks Saskia, great to be with you.
Mabin:
It’s certainly been a very busy week for you. Thanks for making time to speak to us. A few in the office have had a bit of a bugbear about it being described as a Productivity Roundtable, because I don’t believe that table was actually perfectly round.
Leigh:
Very astute of you. It’s not like King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, it’s in fact an oval table. Having stared at it for 29 hours this week, I can certainly speak to that.
Mabin:
Yes. Now, given all of those conversations across 29 hours, we know that there is an appetite for tax reform and I just listed the 3 points that Treasurer Jim Chalmers has made. It sort of has been pointed out that perhaps the government used the cover of this roundtable to go beyond what was talked at the election when Anthony Albanese played down the prospect of tax changes. Has this been, you know, a little bit conniving, a little bit scheming on that front?
Leigh:
Not in the least. There were a whole range of discussions around tax, many of which surprised me in terms of the perspectives that were put and the ideas that were advanced. There was a clear focus on intergenerational equity, on making sure that the next generation have a fair go and are able to get ahead and buy a house. There’s a big emphasis on looking at how challenges of the future will face us, such as electric vehicles, and how we make sure the tax system is fit for purpose in a net zero economy.
Mabin:
When Jim Chalmers was asked this morning on AM whether that meant relooking at Labor’s policies to do with family trusts or reduction of capital gains discounts. He said that Labor would not be looking at changing their policies on those particular topics. Can you point to any, you know, practical measures that are actually going to happen to achieve those aims of addressing intergenerational inequity?
Leigh:
Look, we’ve said we work with states and territories on road user charging. Obviously, we’re going to come to a stage where the revenue source that we’re currently using to fund road building – the fuel excise – has dried up. So, we need to tackle that as a country. But there’s also, I think, a strong awareness that our tax system is imperfect and we need to look at it through an intergenerational lens. That’s going to continue to be a conversation among roundtable participants engaging with the government. And when we’ve got specific proposals on that, of course, we’ll take them to the Australian people in the usual way.
Mabin:
So, building more houses was, I believe, one of the things that came out as somewhat of a solution there, reforming the National Construction Code. What does that look like? What are the aims moving forward?
Leigh:
We’ve got to get more houses built and I think there’s a general recognition that well intended regulation has, in some cases, stymied our ability to build more homes. If you’ve got a code which is being updated every few years, but it takes 7 or 8 years to build a block of apartments, then that means that a builder might need to go through various versions of the code. As they set about building the apartments, they need certainty and to make sure that the regulation is right‑sized. I was talking to Planning Minister Chris Steel the other day about the work that the ACT Government is doing on this as part of their Missing Middle Plan, trying to make sure that they’ve streamlined the processes and that we’re getting building approvals happening faster.
Mabin:
You mentioned already introducing a road user charge and there’s been a lot of talk about the impact on electric and hybrid vehicles. We don’t know yet from the Treasurer how much that charge would be when it will come into effect. Do you have any details that you can share? Because there are a lot of Canberrans who do drive electric and hybrid vehicles.
Leigh:
It’s a shared conversation with states and territories, and so the Commonwealth committed to advancing that through the Council for Federal Financial Relations. NSW Treasurer Daniel Mookhey was there for the whole 3 days – a very constructive contributor, and he and others will work on that model alongside the federal government. We’ve had some really good views and really good input. We need to advance the reform quickly so we’re able to get a tax system that’s fit for the 21st Century.
Mabin:
So we could expect that those charges will come in quite quickly?
Leigh:
Well, I think the biggest priority here is actually heavy vehicles. Our current system is making it quite difficult to decarbonise the heavy vehicle fleet, which means you’ve got more pollution rolling down the roads, noisier vehicles than you need to have. So, a significant portion of the conversation is the work that Catherine King is leading with state and territory counterparts on heavy vehicles as well.
Mabin:
Something else that was talked about, and we’ve discussed this on the radio already is the announcement about the NDIS. The government trying to curb its cost growth to 4 to 6 per cent annually. One of the ways of doing that is starting this new program, ‘Thriving Kids’ to divert children aged zero to 9 away from the NDIS and onto a new scheme. At this stage, are the states and territories on board with these changes?
Leigh:
We’ll certainly be working with states and territories, but we know we need to get on and roll this system out. We’ve got a situation where one in 6 young boys are on the National Disability Insurance Scheme. That’s not financially sustainable and calls into question the scheme itself. We really need to make sure that this new scheme is up‑and‑running. It will be evidence based, it will be focused on making sure that children get the help they need so the NDIS can stay focused on people with significant and profound disability.
Mabin:
We have heard from advocates in this space that they’re concerned that there will be a gap in the support services offered to those children as they move from the NDIS to this new program. What’s being done to ensure that they won’t fall through the cracks in that time?
Leigh:
Well first, I don’t think anyone imagines that the NDIS model as operating now for children with autism is the perfect model for children who have developmental delays related to autism. What we need to do is to get supports in place more quickly and they need to be better tailored to what those children need. Bill Shorten used to use the phrase of the NDIS is grabbed onto because it’s the only lifeboat in the ocean. What this is about is ensuring that there’s other options – evidence based, which better support parents of children with autism.
Mabin:
Andrew Leigh, I believe we will need so much more detail as this is all pored over and analysed in the weeks and months to come. Thank you for your initial thoughts. Do you class the roundtable as a success? Are you feeling optimistic after 29 hours sitting at that not perfectly round table?
Leigh:
A rollicking success. I mean, I’m just so grateful to the couple of dozen people who were there the whole time, the couple of dozen people who came through for various sessions. As an economist, of course I can imagine nothing better than sitting in a windowless room for 29 hours talking economics. But it was just a real pleasure to me to see the constructive way people engaged, not bringing into the room their sectional interests, but thinking about the national interest all the way through. It was a pleasure and a privilege to be part of the conversation that Treasurer Chalmers brought together.
Mabin:
Well, I’m pleased to hear that. Thank you very much for your time this morning.
Leigh:
Thanks so much Saskia.
Mabin:
Andrew Leigh there, the Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury and also the Member for Fenner.