Stephen Cenatiempo:
Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury and the Member for Fenner, Andrew Leigh. Andrew, Happy New Year!
Andrew Leigh:
Happy New Year Stephen, great to be back with you.
Cenatiempo:
Now, it’s been announced – it was announced yesterday by the Prime Minister that parliament will be recalled early to address this Combating Antisemitism, Hate and Extremism Bill 2026. Now, this was obviously drafted in the aftermath of the Bondi attack on 14th December. I got a couple of problems with this. Firstly, my question is what difference does it make if this legislation is passed on the 19th of January or the 3rd of February? It’s not going to make any material difference?
Leigh:
We need to crack down on hate speech Stephen. We need to do so as quickly as possible. The Prime Minister’s determination ever since the horrendous Bondi attacks has been to act swiftly in the interest of stamping out antisemitism.
Cenatiempo:
Well, he’s done anything but. I mean, look at the Royal Commission. It took him over 3 weeks to decide that that was going to happen after saying it never would.
Leigh:
Well, he made an immediate announcement that Dennis Richardson would take lead a review of our national security agencies. That’ll now be folded into the Royal Commission but our focus has been on ensuring that we get the gun buyback in place, and that’ll be part of the legislation before parliament next week and then basically crack down on hate speech.
Cenatiempo:
Which is the next – well let me stop you there, because – and I’ve got no problem with tightening our gun laws. I think that should be done on a fairly regular basis. But these are 2 completely diametrically opposed pieces of legislation. Why are they being rolled into the one bill?
Leigh:
We need to put in place measures to take guns out of people’s hands. We need to put in measures that ensure that hate preachers aren’t able to spread division and discord within our society.
Cenatiempo:
I understand that. The question I ask is, how are those 2 things connected? Because a gun buyback, anybody who’s involved in extremist behaviour is not going to sell their guns to the government?
Leigh:
Well, the people who were engaged in the attacks had hate in their hearts and guns in their hands. And so we need to get those guns out. The effect of the gun buyback that was put in place by John Howard in 1996 was to reduce gun deaths. Gun suicides, gun homicides fell substantially after that. And following a decade in which we had an average of one mass shooting every year, we had no mass shootings in the decade after that gun buyback.
Cenatiempo:
But there’s a very big difference here?
Leigh:
The gun buyback has been proven to be effective.
Cenatiempo:
Well there’s a very big difference here, though. Port Arthur was conducted by one mentally ill individual. Bondi was a terror attack. I mean somebody who, as you say, has ‘hate in their hearts’ and they’re going to engage in terrorist activity, are not going to say well ‘We’ll cancel the attack, because the government’s going to give us $150 each for our guns’.
Leigh:
We’re also putting in place measures that will make it more difficult for people like those who allegedly perpetrated the attack to get hold of guns. In particular, there will be measures that will ensure that non‑citizens aren’t able to have guns. That would have prevented one of the alleged perpetrators of the attack from conducting that attack.
And of course, we’ve got to move on with the motion of condolence for the victims. The Prime Minister has announced today a national day of mourning on 22nd January. It’ll take place every year to honour the victims of the attack. And parliament next week will move a bipartisan motion of condolence for the victims, ranging, of course, from the Holocaust survivor right down to young 10‑year‑old Matilda.
Cenatiempo:
With regards to the hate speech laws and the crackdown on visas, et cetera. All of these sound great, but we already have these laws in place – we don’t enforce them. What difference does it make passing new legislation if we’re not actually going to go out? Because we know who these hate preachers are, but we haven’t rounded them up and deported them or put them in jail yet?
Leigh:
Well, these will be new measures Stephen. So, there’ll be a new aggravated hate speech offence for preachers and leaders who promote violence. There’ll be higher penalties for hate speech promoting violence, and hate will be an aggravating factor in sentencing crimes for online threats and harassment. So, these will be new measures in addition to the wide suite of measures that we’ve put in place to address antisemitism since coming to office. The Antisemitism Envoy, Operation Avalite and the like.
Cenatiempo:
The problem I see with this is though, is my understanding is the legislation gives these hate preachers a get out of jail free card if they’re quoting scripture, or link their hate preach to something that’s in whatever book they believe in, that basically excuses them.
Leigh:
Well, this is a measure which has been put in place to ensure that people are able to practice their faiths and that we’re not criminalising somebody who is simply reading out a passage from a religious text. And that’ll be true across all passages across all religions. Certainly, many religious texts could be misinterpreted. This will ensure that people are not breaching the law simply by reading out of religious text.
Cenatiempo:
Alright, I guess the proof will be in the pudding. Now, I want to touch on an op‑ed that you had published in the Daily Telegraph yesterday regarding competition laws. Now, you and I have discussed this numerous times, and you’ve quoted David Littleproud the Nationals leader in this too. I disagree with both of you on this. I don’t think there is any price gouging going on with the supermarkets, but I just wonder what difference this is going to make, particularly when it comes to the pricing, the discount pricing things which has been deemed as predatory. Surely you just buy things when the price seems right to you, don’t you?
Leigh:
Well, many Australians don’t have that choice when they need to go and do the local shop. And we’ve seen prices in supermarkets rising faster than inflation in some cases. What this is about is giving the competition watchdog additional powers, powers which are similar to those that exist in Europe and the UK in order to crack down on excessive pricing. We hope that these powers won’t need to be used, that the supermarkets will do the right thing by Australians. But the supermarkets inquiry by the ACCC did note that our supermarket sector is very concentrated, a couple of big supermarkets dominating the market, and that creates the potential for price gouging.
Cenatiempo:
But don’t you run the risk here of people paying higher prices more often because the supermarkets just say, ‘Well, we’ll just keep the standard price as it is, we won’t offer the discount then?’
Leigh:
Well, competition is the best way of ensuring that we get good, low prices for Australians. The introduction of Aldi has put downward pressure on prices in the sector. But Aldi’s growth has come at the expense of IGA by and large. Those smaller retailers have shrunk, and the 2 big majors have maintained their market share over the course of the last couple of decades. So, we’re also looking at the market structure issues through dealing with issues such as land banking and making sure that every supermarket merger comes before the Treasurer for approval.
Cenatiempo:
But doesn’t that suggest that David Littleproud’s idea of the big stick of breaking the supermarkets up is a worthwhile opportunity? I mean, it’s one of those things. It’s the baseball bat you don’t want to use, but it’s there if you have to.
Leigh:
David Littleproud is all hat and no cattle. He was in government for 9 years. They didn’t put in place divestiture powers. No major competition inquiry has recommended it, including Hilmer, Harper, Dawson. The recent ACCC supermarkets inquiry didn’t recommend it. We’re focused on practical measures that will actually make a difference so families and farmers get a better deal.
Cenatiempo:
Alright. Well, I guess, as I say, the proof will be in the pudding. Andrew, good to speak to you. We’ll catch up in a couple of weeks.
Leigh:
Likewise, thanks Stephen.
Cenatiempo:
Andrew Leigh, the Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury.