Stephen Cenatiempo:
One person who has done a few of these CEO sleepouts is the Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury, Andrew Leigh. Good morning Andrew.
Andrew Leigh:
Good morning Stephen, great to be with you.
Cenatiempo:
You’re not joining us this year?
Leigh:
I’m not. I’m doing a different fundraiser. I’m raising money for the Indigenous Marathon Foundation by doing an Ironman triathlon. I’m currently at about where you are in terms of fundraising. And congratulations to you on raising money for a terrific cause. Vinnies just does such terrific work in the community.
Cenatiempo:
I’m going to call you out on this, because you run for fun!
Leigh:
And you sleep for fun!
Cenatiempo:
I wish I did sleep. Look, let’s talk federal politics. You’ve talked about sluggish productivity. You’ve warned that excessive regulation and red tape are choking growth, housing and innovation. We’ve talked about this ad nauseam. It’s no secret to anybody, why hasn’t it been done already? You’ve been there for 3 years?
Leigh:
Yeah, one of the big challenges here is that you’re working across a range of tiers of governments, and so it’s local, state and federal governments have these regulations. In many cases well meaning, but often the cumulative effect of them is to create this thicket of regulation.
You see in the housing space, Clare O’Neil taking a leadership role there, being very clear about the importance of engaging on regulation that’s slowing down building. We’ve got an ambitious housing target. We need to make sure we’re not just putting the dollars behind it but that we’ve also got regulatory structures to make it happen.
Cenatiempo:
And again, I know we discussed this last time we spoke that most of the hold‑ups are outside of the federal government’s hands. Is it? Is it time to take a stick to the lower levels of government, because incentives don’t seem to be working?
Leigh:
Look, I’m a collaborative person. I wouldn’t naturally think about taking a ‘stick’ to other tiers of governments. And I think there is a political challenge if you’re a jurisdiction where your votes are coming from local residents who don’t necessarily want to see infill.
But as a nation, we need to be building more homes around public transport nodes, and that’s in the national interest. So clear as engagement with states and local governments is going to be key to that.
Cenatiempo:
Yeah okay, maybe there needs to be a bit more engagement here in the ACT because we seem to be lagging behind. I want to talk about this Productivity Summit that the Prime Minister’s announced. Look on the face of it, not a bad idea but nothing ever seems to come from these summits?
Leigh:
We’ve got a lot of work going on with productivity already. We have the big competition agenda of the last term. We’re getting rid of non‑compete clauses that the Treasurer announced in the Budget – to be legislated soon.
And so, this is a continuation rather than the beginning of the conversation. A pretty tightly focused conversation in the Cabinet Room, so a couple of dozen people around the table largely representing peak groups, bringing more people into that conversation about how we increase living standards.
Cenatiempo:
Do we need be fair dinkum about how we achieve this and be a little bit more, I guess, creative in our thinking? Because there’s a report in ‘The Australian’ that employer groups are going to put a new working‑from‑home clause to the Fair Work Commission, which will allow other entitlements to be traded for work from home.
I mean, I think there’s something. Now, you know, I mean obviously these things can go too far, but there’s a lot of lot to be said for this. When you know there is a certain luxury and privilege to working from home. Maybe there should be some trade‑offs?
Leigh:
Well we saw in the election what happened in the Coalition, when they tried to wind back working from home. This is a matter that’s before the independent Fair Work Commission.
Cenatiempo:
Yeah, but I’m not talking about winding it back. I’m talking about, you know, maintaining it – but understanding that there has to be concessions?
Leigh:
Yeah, there’s always going to be a conversation between workers and employers about how to get working‑from‑home quite right. I understand that there’s a value in encouraging teamwork, of having people physically together frequently but that flexibility has also meant that we’re able to get a whole lot of people engaging in the workforce who couldn’t before. The less jobs are ‘greedy jobs’, the more that people are able to balance work and family, that’s a good thing for the economy, as well as for families.
Cenatiempo:
I want to talk about the productivity aspect of this. And look, I’m happy to be corrected if there’s some evidence to the otherwise. But whenever we do surveys or studies on whether or not work from home is more productive it generally comes down to asking people if they’re more productive working from home. There’s got to be a better gauge or measure of that?
Leigh:
Yeah, the original economic study on this is a Chinese travel agency that does a randomised trial where they had some people working from home and some at the office, and they actually find that their workers who are working from home are more productive. They also, interestingly, find they’re less likely to be promoted, perhaps because they’re not in front of the bosses physically as often.
Then there’s been a whole series of studies and through COVID and you know, there’s mixed evidence there. But certainly enough to suggest that working from home is not a productivity disaster, and we know it’s a huge participation boost.
Cenatiempo:
Yeah, no doubt about that. I just think that there needs to be a better measure of it than saying to somebody who is, you know, working from the dining room table, ‘are you more productive?’ And if they say yes, we say, ‘well, there you go there’s proof’. There’s got to be better way to do it than that?
Leigh:
Oh, that’s right. And certainly, all of these studies that I’m talking about are looking at real measures of output, not just what the worker says that they’re doing. And so, there is some pretty good evidence to back working from home. And you know, again, as people are caring for older relatives or younger kids, that allows more people to balance work and family in a way that they just couldn’t before.
Cenatiempo:
Yeah, it’s certainly a new world that’s for sure. Andrew, good to talk to you, we’ll catch up again in a couple of weeks.
Leigh:
Likewise, thanks Stephen. Good luck on the CEO Sleepout.
Cenatiempo:
Thank you mate. Andrew Leigh is the Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Assistant Minister for Treasury.