Stephen Cenatiempo:
Alright, time to talk federal politics with the Member for Fenner and the Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury, Dr Andrew Leigh. Andrew, good morning.
Andrew Leigh:
Good morning Stephen.
Cenatiempo:
I want to touch on that National Anti‑Corruption Commission for a moment. I mean, my criticism from the beginning – and I know it was Helen Haines’ baby – but there’s no evidence of any wholesale corruption at a federal level because you guys are all largely arm’s length from anything like that. Secondly, there are already agencies that can investigate corruption. And thirdly, if we’ve seen from around the states with their anti‑corruption bodies, they become political star chambers. And this could come back to, you know, it might work for your government at the moment, but eventually you’ll get voted out, and then it’ll come back to bite you on the backside?
Leigh:
Stephen, I’m very happy to talk about that. First of all, I want to say that Helen Haines’ attack is something that’s really shaken up politics today.
Cenatiempo:
Yeah.
Leigh:
She is an extraordinarily kind person. On the topic you talked about, she’s been a strong campaigner for anti‑corruption bodies. I remember that wonderful moment when Bridget Archer crossed the floor to support Helen Haines’ motion on the anti‑corruption commission. And Helen put her arm around Bridget’s shoulders as they walked out of the chamber together. She’s a truly decent person. One of the things she did just before yesterday’s attack was to put out a statement welcoming the new appointment of the new head of the National Anti‑Corruption Commission. So, it’s an issue that’ll really define her. And she’s just thought of as one of the most decent people in the parliament. She’s always got a smile –
Cenatiempo:
Yeah. And it’s interesting you say that because when you look at the independents within the parliament, most of them do come under scrutiny for their, I guess, ideological positions. Helen Haines seems to be the one that is universally respected by everybody.
Leigh:
She’s a bush midwife, grew up in a town of 95 people, used to run around barefoot in the paddock. I got to know her when we started parliamentary Friends of Cycling in 2020. Dave Sharma, Helen Haines and I were the 3 co‑chairs of that. Her office is near mine at the moment and so we’d walk down to Question Time together, and yes, she’s just a real ray of light in parliament. Somebody who is always thinking about her constituents, which is what makes this attack so shocking. If it can happen to Helen, you know, it could happen to anyone.
Cenatiempo:
I guess we’ve got to be careful about the details yet cause we don’t know what motivations are, et cetera. We know that a man has been arrested and is assisting police with their inquiries as we say. But it does harken back to the nature of political discourse. And you and I have some fairly robust conversations on a Tuesday morning. But there’s, you know, there’s a level of respect that I think remains afterwards, but I don’t know that that permeates through our political system at the moment.
Leigh:
I think that’s right Stephen. One of the reasons I really look forward to our chats is because we do think differently about politics. I think one of the dangers is that people end up in echo chambers in which they’re just talking to people like themselves. There’s been a lot of that echo chamber politics reinforced by social media, I think, which makes it easier just to hear views of your own. If you’re on the far left, you just get surrounded by far‑left social media. If you’re on the far right, the same problem occurs.
So we do need to get in the habit of rubbing shoulders of people who think differently with one another. Charities and not‑for‑profits are a part of that. If you’re part of a sporting club or a beer appreciation society, you’re getting together people who maybe think differently from you and remind yourself that good people can disagree about values.
Cenatiempo:
The issue is, though, and the Prime Minister quite rightly said we’ve got to tone it down, and I hope he takes his own advice on that, and I hope Angus Taylor does too, and I hope all of us do. But we then see the situation that arose yesterday with another one of these Pauline Hanson ‘Please Explain’ videos. Now, on the whole I think they’re pretty funny; they’re satirical. And I know most of your colleagues, they might not say it publicly, but privately they think they’re pretty funny too. But there was a line crossed yesterday, or in this latest video with some comments that were made about Jacqui Lambie. There seems to be a level of almost acceptance that if somebody’s on the opposite side of politics to you, that they’re fair game?
Leigh:
Yes. I mean, the attack on Jacqui Lambie was appalling. She’s a very decent, hard‑working person and to be making these sorts of attacks on people from the other side of politics is just abhorrent. And one of the things we’ve seen in other countries is that when you normalise that sort of verbal attack, then you normalise political violence. It is a spectrum. We’re seeing harassing, nuisance, offensive threats rising. Tony Burke yesterday said they’re up from 951 to 1,067. There’s a lot of these sort of attacks around. My colleague Anne Aly revealed last week she’d been subject to 19 death threats in a single week.
Cenatiempo:
Yeah, it is frightening the way – and look, and I suppose we do need to temper this by saying it’s not the first time these kinds of things have happened. And the one that sticks in my mind because I lived in that part of Sydney was when John Newman, the Labor Member for Cabramatta, was assassinated back in 1994. So, it’s not unusual – well, when I say it’s not unusual, this isn’t part of today’s politics that hasn’t existed. But I think we’re more at risk of this kind of thing happening today than we were back in the 90s?
Leigh:
Yeah, I think that’s right. I mean, that was an awful attack back in 1994 and a local councillor was convicted. It was, as you say, Australia’s first political assassination. Interestingly, Jason Clare, one of the last people to speak to John Newman was the person who told me yesterday about the attack on Helen Haines. It is something that’s been around for a while, but certainly it’s getting worse here. It’s getting worse in other countries. We’re seeing big rises in Germany and the United States in verbal and physical attacks on parliamentarians.
Cenatiempo:
Yeah, it’s a frightening world we live in. Andrew, good to talk to you. We’ll catch up again in a couple of weeks.
Leigh:
Likewise. Thank you Stephen.
Cenatiempo:
All the best. Dr Andrew Leigh, the Assistant Minister for Productivity, Competition, Charities and Treasury, and Member for Fenner. Of course, our thoughts and prayers are with Helen Haines and her family at the moment.