Nadia Mitsopoulos:
Well, a lot of you might have missed this yesterday, but there was some pretty feisty debate in federal parliament and the Opposition let rip on the government over the tax office’s decision to ban people using credit cards to pay their tax bills, which, of course, we now know the government has said, can you please hold off on that for another year?
Now, during that attack, Opposition MP Angie Bell said this about the federal Small Business Minister, Anne Aly, and the Prime Minister.
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Mitsopoulos:
‘Stoned in the square’. Fiery words made. In the heat of the debate, in the heat of the moment, do you brush it off and move on? Because Anne Aly says this time she can’t, and she’s on the phone to tell you why. Minister, good morning and thank you for talking to me.
Anne Aly:
Thank you, Nadia.
Mitsopoulos:
When you heard those words, ‘stoned in the square’, how did they make you feel?
Aly:
Oh, look, Nadia, I always go back and forth on these things because I’m always quite a bit reticent to talk about these things because I recognise that I’m in a fairly privileged position.
But my mind goes to the women, and I was one of them, who will go home tonight and who will actually face a threat of violence. And so speaking up about this, it did touch me, and it touched me specifically, because I’ve had those kinds of threats before and because I am a survivor of domestic violence and because there are too many women being killed at the moment, and because any kind of language that normalises violence against women needs to be called out.
Mitsopoulos:
And that’s why you called it out this time, because on your social media post, you said you would not normally give attention to this kind of behaviour.
Aly:
No, I wouldn’t normally, but I think that this particular instance, and at a time when we have so many women being killed, when we know that 1 in 4 women out there will be going home to a situation of violence, I think it is a real imperative on all of us and political leaders, especially, to ensure that they don’t use language that normalises violence.
Mitsopoulos:
How do you describe those comments?
Aly:
I think they’re disgraceful. I don’t understand how anyone even has that phrase as a catchphrase, as part of their vocabulary, to bring out that people are passionate about issues. And in parliament, debates do get heated. And I think it’s imperative that we have robust debate and that we’re able to be passionate about the things that we care about and that we’re there to represent our constituents on, but I also think that there is a responsibility here in how we express that passion. I just found them abhorrent. I’ve had people contacting me saying that their jaws just dropped to the floor when they heard it.
Mitsopoulos:
And you also said in your social media post, and for those who don’t know, it was an Opposition MP, Angie Bell, that made these comments that you said they were racist and misogynistic. How so?
Aly:
Well, Angie knows me. She knows my background; she knows where my family come from. She knows my cultural background, my faith background. I think they were pointedly racist. There are women around the world who actually do face the real threat of stoning. And in the past, when I’ve had those comments made to me by people, there was a very clear racist undertone to them.
Mitsopoulos:
My guest this morning is Anne Aly, federal Small Business Minister, and I will go to your calls on this. 1300 221 025. Could you say that it was racist if the comments were made, which they were, to both you but also the Prime Minister, who does not share your background?
Aly:
In any context, I think referring to the stoning of women, knowing that this is an actual, real situation for women in particular parts of the world, to me, they were racist.
Mitsopoulos:
Anne Aly, in a statement, Angie Bell said she withdrew her comments immediately and said it was a poor choice of words in the heat of the moment. Is that enough for you to move on? Is that an acceptable explanation?
Aly:
Well, she didn’t withdraw them immediately. She was asked to withdraw them by the Speaker of the House shortly afterwards, and her withdrawal was in order to assist the House. I withdraw, which is kind of a politician’s way of saying sorry, not sorry. Since then, both she and a number of her colleagues have doubled down. So, I don’t consider that an apology. I’m sorry – not sorry, I guess.
Mitsopoulos:
Sorry, not sorry, Anne Aly, my guest this morning. Pauline Hanson was asked about Angie Bell’s comments as well, and this was her response.
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Mitsopoulos:
Do you need to calm down, Minister?
Aly:
Well, I’ve been doing this for a number of years and I’ve had death threats even before I became a member of parliament as well. And this is not about calming down. This is not just words in the heated moment. This is about taking responsibility for words, because words matter and words have impacts and as a society, normalising violence against women should be a no-go zone. Those kinds of words should be a no-go zone.
Pauline isn’t the only one who said, calm down and I know Angus Taylor said words to the same effect and people have been doubling down on that words to the same effect. Most of the time I do let things go, but as I said, there are times when I think it behooves us to stand up and say this is the red line. Not for ourselves, but for all of those women out there who are scared, who are facing the real threat of violence.
And I remember myself as a young woman in that situation and if I had seen those words coming from a leader in our parliament, I know the impact that it would have had back on me back then. That sting, I still carry that sting and it still has that impact.
But as I said, for me now, I’m in a much more privileged position. I’m much older, much wiser, much stronger, but I speak out on behalf of all of those women.
Mitsopoulos:
1300 221 025 is the number. And I will get to your calls in just a moment. It’s 14 past 10. You also made an admission and revealed that you’ve had 19 death threats in the last week.
Aly:
Look, it’s not unusual.
Mitsopoulos:
Can you tell me a bit more about the number of threats you get and what they say?
Aly:
Look, I think we live in a time when a lot of parliamentarians get a lot of negative commentary, some of them in veering into the territory of violence. I don’t want to give them airtime, and I don’t want to repeat them, Nadia, if that’s okay.
Mitsopoulos:
No, I absolutely understand that, but I imagine you get them on social media, emails, and I know you’re not the only one. And I just look at this worrying statistic. Threats against politicians and their staff have actually doubled in the space of 2 years. I just wonder, do they frighten you?
Aly:
Gosh, I feel like I’ve kind of become accustomed to them, which is a sad thing to say. I do think, I think – I think the most impact that it has is that it prevents us from being able to do the work that we need to be doing in getting out there and being with the people that we represent, talking to them, being visible, being engaged and being able to be, being approachable.
Mitsopoulos:
Well, we’ve certainly noticed MPs have a lot more security around them and even when we have federal MPs in here, there’s a lot of cops that come in and do a sweep of the place first. You know, once upon a time, that never happened.
Aly:
It is something that is concerning and I don’t know, I think the best that we can do is to continue to ensure that as leaders, we role model behaviour and we ensure that the language that we use doesn’t add to it.
Mitsopoulos:
Anne Aly, how would you describe the state of debate right now?
Aly:
I think people are angry and I think, you know, I don’t want to downplay that in any way, Nadia. I think that’s, that, you know, it’s important to recognise people’s emotions.
I do think there are a number of factors that contribute to a disintegration of the way in which we are able to discuss issues of importance for our nation. One of them being social media. I think that’s probably the primary one.
I think that every single individual has a responsibility to ensure that we engage in debate in an informed manner, but also in a civil manner. Being able to debate things in a civil way is one of the cornerstones of democracy, and this is about preserving our democracy, something which we highly value in this country.
Mitsopoulos:
Anne Aly, this all came about because of the ban on credit card surcharges and then the tax office’s decision to ban the use of credit cards payments for tax bills because of those surcharges and they couldn’t absorb the cost. Some people are saying, hmm, is this a ploy to divert attention away from a bad decision and the unintended consequences of what your government’s done on surcharges. How do you respond to that?
Aly:
Well, let me just touch on the surcharge ban for a minute. That was the decision made by the RBA and it really was about transparency for both businesses and consumers, so that the price you see is the price that you pay.
Now, around 84 per cent of small businesses did not charge a surcharge before these reforms. Those small businesses are expected to actually save $910 million a year, because what the RBA also did was it reduced the cap on what banks can charge in the interchange fees from 0.8 per cent to 0.3 per cent. Banks have also, and other providers of surcharge of those services have also cut their fees.
And so I would say to small businesses out there, who that 16 per cent or so who did charge a surcharge to shop around. Westpac, for example, have cut their fees by 41 basis points.
Ultimately, though, this is about transparency for consumers. If the price says it’s this amount and then you go to pay for it by your credit card or your debit card as well, you’re adding another percentage of that onto it. This is really about consumers being able to confidently know what they’re going to pay for a product or a service.
Mitsopoulos:
Would you like to see the tax office – the Prime Minister revealed last night that he actually had a text message from Andrew McKellar, the CEO of the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, and intervened to, you know, tell the tax office, you know, well don’t ban credit card payments. Could that become a permanent thing, do you think? Would you like it to be permanent because taxpayers don’t like it?
Aly:
Well, I don’t know that it can be. But I will say this. I think the government acted very swiftly. I came out and very, very quickly and said that the ATO needs to continue and should have better consulted with small businesses and needs to continue to consult, particularly with small businesses around those that use their credit card to maintain cash flow and plan on using their credit card to maintain cash flow when paying their tax debt. I think the Prime Minister and the Treasurer acted very swiftly in that regard in giving that extension and that extension is funded. So, what it is, is that the government is actually funding the ATO to be able to continue to accept credit cards. That’s transitional funding.
Mitsopoulos:
All right, I’ll leave it there. Good to talk to you today, Anne Aly. Thanks for your time.
Aly:
Thanks, Nadia.