Patricia Karvelas:
Well, let’s return to the Prime Minister’s National Press Club address, and bring in Anne Aly, a newly‑minted Cabinet Minister who was there in Canberra today for the speech. Anne Aly, welcome.
Anne Aly:
Thank you, Patricia, how are you?
Karvelas:
Great, and it’s great to have you here.
Aly:
Thank you.
Karvelas:
I’m going to put these 2 words to you and see how you respond.
Aly:
Okay.
Karvelas:
Progressive patriotism – what does that even mean?
Aly:
Well, I like them actually. I think it encapsulates a sense of kind of – you know – working progressively for Australia’s own interests. It encapsulates, I think, what the Prime Minister was saying in his National Press Club speech today, that – you know – this is about building on our first term and building for Australia. I think it’s a great term.
Karvelas:
Okay. It’s a great term. The Prime Minister made an announcement today that the government will hold a productivity roundtable in August. Why do you need a roundtable to tell you things that I think have been in many reports for a long period of time?
Aly:
Well, this roundtable would bring together business and unions, and particular stakeholders and special interest groups. And productivity – of course, as the Prime Minister outlined today – is one of the things that we’ll be focused on in this next term, building again on our first term.
I think it’s a wonderful opportunity to hear from business and to hear from unions. And I will make the point that it really is a Labor government that’s able to bring together both businesses and unions. And look at what it is that we can be doing in terms of productivity, in terms of – you know – ensuring that the interests of businesses are maintained. But also the interests of workers are also maintained because businesses can’t operate without workers, and you don’t get productivity unless you look after your workers as well.
Karvelas:
You’re a Small Business Minister now sitting in the Cabinet. What have you heard so far from small business when it comes to the kinds of changes they want to see. They have been frustrated for a while; they’ve talked about the difficulties in the cost‑of‑living crisis that they’ve described as a kind of ‘cost‑of‑doing‑business crisis’ as well. Do you see yourself as being quite key in this agenda for this round table when it comes to small business as well?
Aly:
Well, I am very keen on ensuring that small businesses and the voices of small businesses are heard. What I’m hearing from small business, first of all, is the diversity of small business. You’ve got – you know – a majority of them are sole traders, only around 30 per cent are incorporated.
And they vary – they vary in terms of their size as well as in terms of the diversity of services and goods that they provide. But they are a vital part of our economy providing goods and providing services, that are essential in our economy.
What I’ve heard from them is a frustration with red tape. And one of the kind of the principles of our National Small Business Strategy that was released last year and that we’re working on across 3 levels of government, local, state and federal – is looking at red tape and looking at making it easier for small business to do business.
So they’re the things that I’m focused on, is delivering on some of the things that we’ve outlined in our National Small Business Strategy. But also working with different kinds of small businesses and looking at the diversity of small businesses; whether they be a micro business, for example, a mother at home who bakes cupcakes on demand, personalised cupcakes on demand, or a hairdresser working from home. Just looking at the diversity of small businesses and ensuring that everything that we do encompasses that diversity as well.
Karvelas:
Now I want to talk about a big issue in the last 5 minutes we have. There’s a new Office of Multicultural Affairs within the Home Affairs Department. Just why have you decided to do this? It is quite a bold move from this government. What is the sort of message you’re trying to send?
Aly:
Well, the message that we’re sending is carving out multicultural affairs from within Home Affairs. What we heard from multicultural communities – and this is not new, it’s actually something I used to write about before I entered politics – is that multicultural communities don’t want to be looked at simply through a security lens. We should not be securitising multiculturalism.
This is about ensuring that multiculturalism is valued, not just celebrated but also valued as an inherent part of our modern Australian identity, recognising the value that multiculturalism brings to Australia.
Recognising that whilst it started out as a policy to enable people to celebrate their cultural and linguistic heritage, multiculturalism also applies to third and second generation Australians, to all Australians, and really valuing the – you know – the benefits that multiculturalism and diversity brings to our nation.
Karvelas:
Is it part of diffusing the difficult hard‑line politics of Home Affairs? You talked about securitising multicultural communities, and I think that’s a really strong word. So I just want to kind of unlock what it means with you, Minister. There was a framework that we talked about with multicultural communities. What was the danger of that and how are you hoping to shift it?
Aly:
Well, I think, you know, we talk a lot about social cohesion, and for a long time social cohesion and multiculturalism have kind of been spoken about together.
I want to say that social cohesion is a valuable pursuit in its own right, but it’s also very fragile. But then multiculturalism isn’t only about social cohesion, it’s about all of us, we all have a responsibility for social cohesion.
So this is really about almost kind of redefining what multiculturalism means. But more importantly, the ways in which we talk about multiculturalism, the ways in which we refer to multicultural communities. Not as a problem and not only within a problematic kind of security frame about social cohesion, and you know, migrants getting along with each other. But really making multiculturalism, recognising that in a mature country, multiculturalism is actually a part of Australia’s modern identity.
Karvelas:
It certainly is the story of Australia really.
Aly:
Absolutely.
Karvelas:
I mean the country’s entirely built in in this incarnation, sort of colonial Australia on multiculturalism, right. But there was a push, largely by Peter Dutton for things like one flag, discussion even on a potential referendum on dual nationals.
Is it an active rejection of those ideas and trying to entrench the idea of multicultural rather than the idea that you come, and you kind of have to just pledge allegiance to just one place, and really get rid of all of the other layers of yourself?
Aly:
Yeah, look, I think that’s part of it, and look, I often talk about second and third generation young people who come from different cultural backgrounds. You know, there’s multiculturalism even within families.
If I take my family as an example, I will speak Arabic to my mother, and you know, I will watch Arabic movies and listen to Arabic music. But my sons won’t, and they don’t speak Arabic, they only speak English. So there are different cultural and linguistic differences even within one family. But that is all multiculturalism, that is all part of multiculturalism.
I think on Peter Dutton, one of the things that he did was he really personalised a lot of the problematic language on multiculturalism to people. So you know, when he talked about African gangs, I know African Australians who looked at that, and said, ‘Oh, he’s speaking about me.’ When he talked about Lebanese, there are Lebanese Australians who said, ‘Oh, he’s talking about me.’
You know, and that’s one of the things when you talk about multiculturalism in a negative manner, people take that quite personally. And I think the success that Labor had at the last election really underscores just how much, as you said, that was rejected by Australians.
Karvelas:
So you’re actively trying to send a message to the diverse communities in the country that you want to build their diversity rather than try and strip it away from them.
Aly:
Yeah, I think diversity is a great thing. Diversity brings forth different ideas, different imagination. I also recognise that diversity comes in different shapes and sizes as well, it’s not just cultural or linguistic diversity. I think we should appreciate diversity in all its forms and in all its manifestations.
And so, you know, for me, when I talk about multiculturalism, it is about moving beyond cultural celebration to actually valuing diversity.
Karvelas:
Anne Aly, always great to speak to you. Congratulations on being elevated into the Cabinet as well.
Aly:
Thank you so much, Patricia.