Stephanie Borys:
For a view from the government, I’m joined by Minister for Small Business and Multicultural Affairs Anne Aly. Thank you for coming on the show this afternoon. I want to start on the Telstra outage. What have you heard from small businesses in terms of the impact that this outage has had?
Anne Aly:
Thank you, Stephanie. Look, we’ve been hearing from small businesses about the fact that they couldn’t trade on the day, they couldn’t communicate with their consumers, they couldn’t use EFTPOS machines or payment systems.
On Wednesday, I had a meeting with Small Business Ministers from around the country and iterated to them that the message, that we should be sending to small businesses, is that they should keep records of how these outages have affected them so that they can put in a claim to Telstra.
I did hear the Telstra CEO this morning apologise, and rightly so, to the Australian people. However, I would call on Telstra to have more clarity and more certainty for small businesses around the compensation scheme. I think small businesses deserve that. Telstra has a long way to go to win back the confidence of the Australian people and of Australian small businesses, and Australian small businesses that suffered losses because of the Telstra outages deserve more clarity around the compensation that they are entitled to.
Borys:
That clarity, it was pretty confusing this morning when we heard from Telstra CFO. He was talking about customers needing to call to make a complaint, then a decision would be made about whether they’d get compensation or not. Have you sought clarification? Has the government tried to get to the bottom of exactly what Telstra is or isn’t offering?
Aly:
It is certainly something that I will be pushing for with Telstra. As I said, small businesses in Australia deserve that clarity, particularly when they rely on these services to do business. We know that small businesses are already doing it tough.
Cash flow is a big issue, and this has directly impacted their cash flow, and they deserve to be compensated, and they deserve a compensation scheme that works for them as well.
Borys:
And when we’re talking about compensation, sort of how much money would you expect Telstra to give businesses? I appreciate that every business is different, but what are we talking into the tens of thousands of dollars you think Telstra should be handing across?
Aly:
Oh look, Stephanie, I’m not going to speculate on that. As you said, for each business it will be different. And it depends, of course, on how they were impacted, which is why I have said to Small Business Ministers, why we said this at the meeting on Wednesday, but also why I’m saying to small businesses, to ensure that they have records of how those losses impacted them.
Borys:
Have you been able to speak to anyone at Telstra yourself as the Minister for Small Business, or is that a meeting you’re seeking to set up?
Aly:
Right now, the process as it has been moving along has been, the first port of call was to ensure that the services are up and running again. I will certainly be seeking to speak to Telstra and ensure that they take their responsibility in this respect to small businesses seriously.
Borys:
And have you got any indication, having spoken to your counterparts in the different states, any idea of, you know, how many businesses were actually impacted, because Telstra hasn’t really put out a figure itself?
Aly:
No, we don’t have any of that data yet. If you can turn your mind to just how many businesses rely on the telecommunications system, whether it’s to contact their consumers and their customers or whether it is for payments, for automatic payments, et cetera. You can imagine the kind of impact that a significant outage, as this was, a nationwide outage, would have had on small businesses.
Borys:
Is there anything small businesses should be doing differently? I mean, I think the Telstra outage showed how reliant many people are on Telstra, or is this purely a problem for Telstra?
Aly:
I think it is a problem for Telstra. I think they need to take responsibility here. The fact is, it’s a fact of everyday life. Small businesses, as well as individuals, as well as families and households, rely on their telecommunications providers, and we expect that telecommunications providers take those responsibilities seriously and uphold the standards.
Borys:
If I can take you to some other topics that we’ve been looking across this week. One Nation leader Pauline Hanson, she’s in the UK at the moment; she’s recorded a podcast with the British far‑right figure Tommy Robinson. Now, at a time where we see politicians conduct all sorts of media to expand their voter base, what do you think though about this particular choice in podcast?
Aly:
Well, this is Pauline Hanson being Pauline Hanson and doing Pauline Hanson. It’s very typical to her brand that she engages with people on the far right, people who are blatantly racist and who have demonstrated racist behaviours and who are divisive figures. That’s Pauline Hanson.
We’re focused on the Australian people. We’re focused on being here in Australia, for the Australian people and focused on families and individuals and small businesses and helping them with the cost of living.
Borys:
Do you think a podcast like that though could win her more votes?
Aly:
Look, I think there is a section of people who would, you know, who know that that’s what she’s about and who perhaps follow her for that. But I also think that there are, by and large, generally a lot of really, you know, most Australians are really, really decent people and would be aghast at the fact that she is engaging in this far right kind of really anti‑immigrant and also quite blatantly racist behaviour.
Borys:
Now on another topic, you’ve flagged the government will assist small businesses who want to restructure out of a trust following the announcements in the May Budget. Can you explain to us where that’s at at the moment?
Aly:
Just to be very clear, the changes are to discretionary trusts, and that’s where a business may be distributing their income across family members or across different people within that trust. It doesn’t apply to discretionary testamentary trusts where assets are protected for genuine inheritance reasons.
Where we’re at at the moment, we’re currently consulting on the changes that we’ve proposed to discretionary trusts, which is a minimum 30 per cent tax on discretionary trusts, on income from discretionary trusts. Right now, there are a number of options for small businesses. So they can restructure to a company structure and take advantage of the small business 25 per cent tax for small businesses from a company structure, or they can restructure to a fixed trust.
These effects, or the effects of the trusts, the changes to the trusts don’t come into effect until next year, so there’s a bit of time there. We’re also consulting on the trusts as well, so I would encourage people to have a look at the consultation paper on that as well.
The support you’re referring to is part of our $3.8 billion in supports for small business, part of which is to help them to restructure out of a discretionary trust or any other form. And businesses can have a look at the ASBFEO, the Small Business Ombudsman, to have a look at how they can get some assistance there.
Borys:
With the consultation period, have you got an end date on that when you want it to sort of all wrap up?
Aly:
Yes. Yes, I can’t recall specifically the end date, but I imagine – it’s about 3 weeks from today.
Borys:
And we’re going around the grounds today just with a lot of different topics, I’m sorry. One more, if you don’t mind. The Greens Senator David Shoebridge, he has today been critical of the Modi government’s human right record, saying, ‘Yes, Australia should have a friendly and respectful relationship with a country’, but in his words, ‘Australia shouldn’t be pumping the tyres of regime that has an appalling record when it comes to human rights of some people and also press freedom’. Does the Australian Government need to call that out?
Aly:
Look, I will frankly say it’s irresponsible to put it in those terms. We have a very strong relationship with India and much of that is built on the people‑to‑people relationship. We have in Australia a number of Indian-Australians, a large number of Indian-Australians, and they’re kind of the foundation or the basis for our relationship with India that enables things like trade and diplomatic relations with India.
Australia has always, always taken the approach, or this government certainly has always taken the approach that, we can build friendships, and we can have trade and diplomatic relations with countries, and we can also have those conversations with them, when we need to have those conversations with them.
I do think it is quite irresponsible of David Shoebridge to put it in those terms. I think he needs to recognise and understand that there are a large number of Indian-Australians here for whom the visit by Modi was such an important and significant impact and important and significant event for them.
Borys:
And quite remarkable scenes we saw out of Melbourne with the stadiums being filled.
Aly:
Certainly.
Borys:
Looking at politics in general now, of course you’re a member of the Labor Party, but you’ve got friends across the divide, and you talk to all different types of politicians. Today we’re reflecting on the life of Derryn Hinch, who’s passed away. Now he was elected to parliament in 2016, which I’m pretty sure is the same year you were elected as well.
Aly:
Yeah.
Borys:
Yeah. What are your memories of him?
Aly:
Derryn and I were both class of 2016, great class I have to say, good year. Right now I just want to send my condolences to his family. Derryn and I shared a lot of conversations with each other on some long plane flights, I have to say.
I think he’s left a lasting impression and a lasting legacy in the media landscape and on the political landscape. And again, I send my condolences to his friends and family.
Borys:
Quite a remarkable man. Thank you so much for coming on this afternoon, minister.
Aly:
Thank you, Stephanie.