Tom Connell:
I spoke to Minister for Small Business and Multiculturalism Anne Aly. I started by asking her if this Budget now has the most unintended consequences of any in recent history.
Anne Aly:
Well, I don’t think I can recall a budget that takes on tax changes like what we’ve done, a budget that’s been bolder or more ambitious than what Labor has done. I mean, I don’t think there’s anyone who could argue that the housing system was broken, could argue against that; we’ve taken action to fix that. I don’t think there is anyone who would say that the tax system, where wage earners who worked, 40, 60 hours a week, were bearing the brunt of tax and bore the brunt of tax more so than those who earned their money from assets. I don’t think anyone who could argue that that didn’t need fixing either.
Connell:
Okay. Small business advocate groups have highlighted a few things. The latest one was, there are about 400,000 small businesses running their business under a trust in some way. Is the government in any talks about whether there’ll be carve out a different treatment, or something like that for any of those small businesses?
Aly:
Okay. So, I think 400,000 is a bit of an over number. I think I’ve just spoken with COSBOA, the estimate is around 280,000. About 10 per cent of small businesses. I want to make it clear that this is specifically on discretionary trusts. So, where the trust is used to distribute income to family members. Most businesses use that in a way in which they are paying family members who actually work in the active business. There are a couple of options there.
One option is to change structure to a company tax structure. The other option is to move to another kind of trust structure such as a fixed trust, which allows the business to maintain the protection of its assets. Now, in our $3.8 billion of supports to small business in the Budget, included in there is a package to help businesses in that restructuring, to support them in that restructuring.
So, on the trusts, we haven’t introduced that legislation yet. We’re consulting on that legislation. I’ve spoken to small businesses themselves; I’ve spoken to the COSBOA and the small business advocates, and I continue to speak to them.
Connell:
Right.
Aly:
To understand what some of the implications of changes to discretionary trusts are.
Connell:
So, when you say consult, does that mean still looking at maybe particular circumstances where you might make a change around tax rates? Is that what you mean by –?
Aly:
Well, we haven’t introduced that legislation on trusts yet. My role as a Small Business Minister is to represent small businesses here in the parliament, and I take that role very seriously. And I hope that all the small businesses that I speak to, as well as their peak bodies, and those who represent them feel that they can come to me and I will always listen to what they have to say.
Connell:
Okay, so consult, though, means there could be changes.
Aly:
Consult means that I am keen to hear from small businesses where this might affect them in ways that may not have been considered. And to feed that back. It doesn’t mean that there would be no guarantee.
Connell:
Not necessarily, but.
Aly:
But again –
Connell:
If it comes back that you went, well, we didn’t actually intend that to hit this business in this way.
Aly:
These are things I would feed back into the process but also encourage them to feed back into the consultation process as well. I think that’s an important point to make.
Connell:
Talk to you about multiculturalism. Would you think the Australian model, or would you agree that it’s having different cultures but embracing Australian values? Is that a neat enough encapsulation of the Australian project, if you like?
Aly:
I think Australia has always been diverse. It’s etched in our history, in our landscape, in who we are as a nation, in our identity as a nation. And I know that there’s a lot of talk about different terminologies that are used at the moment, but I think it’s a very simple concept for us to acknowledge that we are a diverse nation and we have always prouded ourselves on plurality, whether it’s a religiously plural, culturally plural society where everyone gets along well and everyone shares a sense of nationhood and a sense of belonging to.
And I think that’s the primary here. I just want to read for you, because in the Australian citizenship pledge, there’s a line in there and it says this. It says, ‘I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and liberties I respect, whose laws I will uphold and obey.’ Democratic beliefs, rights and liberties, upholding and obeying the law. These are the 3 things when we talk about values. I think this is a concrete kind of way of expressing that these are what Australian values are. This is the citizenship pledge that everyone takes when they become an Australian citizen.
Connell:
I guess there’s a pledge, though, and then there’s the live reality, is what you’re saying that’s obviously in the document people take. And so you’d agree with any rhetoric, I guess, saying that’s how people should live. They take the pledge, and that’s how they should be?
Aly:
I think the lived reality is, yes, certainly upholding the law. That’s why we have a legal system. If you break the law, you will face the consequences of that. I think the lived reality is equality of opportunity, ensuring that every Australian, no matter where you were born, no matter where you come from or where your parents come from, no matter what language you speak at home, has opportunity to participate economically, socially, politically in our system. And I think that’s where we get to the point about, you know, respecting our rights and liberties and the democracy, participating in our democracy.
Connell:
Okay, with your countering extremism background, the challenge that we’re facing now, does it stem from what could be described as a not everywhere, but amongst some in Australia, almost the normalisation of anti‑Semitism since the October 7th attacks?
Aly:
I agree with you that there has been a normalisation of anti‑Semitism, and I think it’s very worrying. I think that extends to other forms of racism as well. Not as acute as it has with the normalisation of anti‑Semitism. And I pay heed to those who have given testimony at the Royal Commission. I know how difficult it is to recount consistent and unrelenting harassment and racism. So, I pay heed to them. I think that’s part of it. I do think as well, there’s a whole range of factors.
Deradicalisation isn’t as simple as that. There are a whole range of factors, and the environment in which radicalisation operates now is a much more different environment than, say, 20 years ago or even at the height of ISIS or Al Qaeda. Very different environment. It’s a lot more varied in the different ideologies. There’s a lot more pick and choose from different ideologies. It’s a lot more self‑promoted and self‑regulated as opposed to being part of organised groups. So, there are a lot of factors there. But I certainly agree with you with the normalisation of anti‑Semitism.
Connell:
Minister, got to leave it there. Thanks for your time.
Aly:
Thank you, Tom.