SUBJECTS: Defence spending, leadership, public service efficiencies.
STEVE CIOBO:
Our focus is upon increasing spending to the defence force so that they are more operationally capable. What we've seen happen is that now under Labor, defence force spending has dropped to its lowest level since 1938. This is because this is a Government that's got massive debt and deficit. A government that's ripping funding out of important strategic priorities like the defence force and they're really starting to, we believe, pay the price. So what Tony Abbott announced on behalf of the Coalition is, you know, a very clear set of aspirations that if we are elected to Government, within 18 months we will have a new defence force white paper that won't so much focus on the number of troops, the number of aircraft or warships or anything like that but will focus on operational capability and so that is going to inform and drive the funding commitments that we give, but ultimately, we want to restore at least to what we saw in final years of the Howard Government; defence spending that makes Australia a strong power in our region and best able to defend our shores.
NICOLE DYER:
Ok, so just putting a little bit of meat to that statement.
CIOBO:
Sure.
DYER:
Just going through some of the things that Mr Abbott brought up. He'd like the defence budget to grow by three per cent a year in real terms. That's if the Coalition wins the next election. Looking at basing more of Australia's military forces at the top end; Northern Australia, as well as giving preference to buying Australian. The Government of course has raised the question, where is that money coming from. Over to you Mr Ripoll.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Thanks Nicole. Firstly, just to put it into context, we've delivered for the third time since 2009 a defence spending budget of over $100 billion. This budget and this year is no different so we continue our commitment to defence. But like all organisations, it is about capacity, it is about targeting, it about making sure you get the priorities right and the priorities are; let's get people in uniform. Let's make sure we can deliver the submarines in Adelaide. The twelve submarines. Let's make sure that we can save money on administration, on back-office, on non-uniformed, on civilian personnel, not on the uniformed, personnel. So it's just about being more efficient, more targeted, doing more with what we already have on the table which is substantial, it's huge. And just quickly, in terms of this aspiration for three per cent. It might be aspirational but it's not inspirational, because I can tell you they haven't got the money to pay for it. They are throwing out the line but there's no money to back it and it just adds…
CIOBO:
Of all people Bernie.
RIPOLL:
It just adds to the $70 billion black hole and it's writing more cheques they just can't cash.
CIOBO:
Of all people Bernie. It is extraordinary that that would come from you as a member of the Labor party when it is your party that has so far announced $120 billion under Gonski, the National Disability Insurance Scheme, and of course the Medicare dental scheme. $120 billion of unfunded commitments and then you have the hide to say to a Coalition Government with a proven track record of delivering when your Government has seen as a percentage of GDP defence spending fall to the lowest level since 1938 and you can't escape that fact. The lowest level since 1938.
RIPOLL:
Look I think the evidence is with us now. I mean we can talk about Budget savings and cuts and all the rest of it. The reality is we've now got the final data on the Budget, so the final Budget outcome which is now a known quantity. We know what the numbers are. We've come in better than expected wth less revenue. It's like having your …
CIOBO:
This is crazy.
RIPOLL:
It's just fact. It's just fact. The final Budget outcome has now been released. We don't get to control that. Whatever the numbers are, they are. And it's like having your pay…
CIOBO:
Let's talk about what the number is.
RIPOLL:
It's like having your pay halved and still meeting all of your obligations and liabilities and doing a little bit better than you thought. Now all of our commitments have been paid for and budgeted for and now proven from the last Budget, the final outcome. We'll continue to do that including delivering a Budget. And this is why we are making the tough choices. We're not sacking people, we're making efficiencies and Penny Wong…
DYER:
And I'm going to get to that.
RIPOLL:
Has just announced… yeah.
DYER:
I want to get to that in just a moment. But just on defence. I just wonder from a public relations perspective, when there is such a big call from Australians to pull our troops out of Afghanistan and what we've seen, is it wise for the Federal Opposition leader Tony Abbott to be concentrating on defence spending right now?
CIOBO:
I think it's wise. I mean, I believe that Australians want to know that our country is going to be well-served and well-protected. I mean we have more demands on our defence force than ever and bear in mind too Nicole that this isn't just about you know war time, it's also about the bulk of the time which is peace time. It's about the ability to utilise those services in peace time. I mean, take for example relief efforts, the fact is that Labor's defence force spending cuts resulted in there being less equipment available and often at times, for example with our Collins Class submarine, not a single one of them has been operationally able to go into the water because there's been defence force spending cuts that they aren't actually mechanically able to go into the water. I mean, and when I hear Bernie talking about - and the reason I was chuckling before when he says 'oh well, we're delivering our Budget' - that's why I said let's talk about what they number was. That number, last year, the final Budget outcome to which Bernie refers was a $44 billion deficit. So that is $44 billion of money borrowed that future generations of Aussie kids are going to have to pay for the next twenty years because you say that's a good final Budget outcome.
RIPOLL:
The Budget will be back to surplus next year so it's not twenty years. I mean, you know, all this hysterical…
CIOBO:
How many years will it be (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
Well, it's next year. We're talking about delivering the Budget…
CIOBO:
No, until you pay off your debt. How many years until you pay off your debt?
RIPOLL:
Well, you've got a debt of $70 billion black hole that you're just creating even larger and you're putting even more - I mean to throw out to defence you're going to spend three more per cent additional is an enormous figure and it's a figure, I'd like to say where're you going to pay for that?
CIOBO:
Mate, we will find…
RIPOLL:
On top of, hang on, on top of the superannuation liabilities of $6.5 billion.
CIOBO:
Yeah, I'm happy to explain. That's why we've said, that's why we're having an upfront open dialogue with the Australian people to say there will be reductions under us. We will find savings (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
So hang on, so you're going to have more with less?
CIOBO:
No, no, no. What we're going to do…
RIPOLL:
There'll be reductions. Of what, people?
CIOBO:
What we're going to do is stop your government's wasteful spending. So we won't be paying $270 for set top boxes that actually you can buy a new TV for $249 on. Plus in addition, the inescapable fact Bernie, is our Government paid off the last $96 billion of debt the previous Labor Government left us in eleven years. We left zero debt.
RIPOLL:
We can do this…
CIOBO:
No mate, the inescapable fact, we left zero debt and your government's now taken that to $145 billion of debt.
RIPOLL:
Well, we can do this every single week on the same stuff, over and over again.
CIOBO:
This is the important stuff.
RIPOLL:
But the reality is when we got to government that we faced something which neither we knew or they knew and that's that we were going to face a global financial crisis and the worst hit natural disasters this country's ever seen and we managed to get through that and save people's jobs to keep the economy strong. The reason we still have a good economy, low inflation, well low inflation, under control interest rates which means that people are now paying around $4000 a year less on an average mortgage of $300,000.
DYER:
Can I stop here because I get the feeling…
RIPOLL:
Yeah, exactly.
DYER:
I'm sitting here in Steve Austin's seat for this week and I'm thinking I'm sure this conversation's happened before
RIPOLL:
I think it may have happened before, yeah.
DYER:
Even though I wasn't part of it. So let's move on to, if we may, party leadership because this is certainly making news around that place and that's former Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner breaking his long silence on Labor politics to condemn the removal of Kevin Rudd back in June 2010. Is it a surprise that Mr Tanner has said this now?
RIPOLL:
Well, it's neither a surprise nor not a surprise. I mean, he's quite entitled to write books and express his view and look I've read his comments and extracts and the newspapers this morning in relation to this and it just reminds me that people from different positions within a group take a different view and have, maybe, a different perspective as to what it means.
DYER:
Panic though. Panic being his opinion was a very significant factor in the removal of Mr Rudd. Do you agree with that?
RIPOLL:
Look, I think we've all got different views. Honestly I really do, I just think that…
DYER:
What's your personal view?
RIPOLL:
Well, my personal view is we were going through a very tough time and the party as a collective and caucus, as they do from time to time, make decisions. Now those decisions aren't necessarily always perfect but you make the decision, the decision is done and you move on and you live with the consequences of that. How right they are, I mean it's always good with hindsight to say oh, that was perfect or not perfect. I'd like to think that nothing is perfect, so it's a decision we made. I stand by the decision purely on these terms. It is done. We've moved on we've proved we can still win government.
DYER:
Quick question though, and I'm going to reflect and I know that we are not living anymore under Mr Rudd, but had Labor kept its nerve, would you have won that election in 2010?
RIPOLL:
Who knows. Maybe yes. Honestly, who knows. But I mean…
DYER:
But there's no right or wrong answer that's just it.
RIPOLL:
No, well, that's the point. That's the point.
DYER:
And that's the point that he's trying to make which he thinks maybe they should of…
RIPOLL:
Look, Lindsay's doing a very good job. He always has I've got great regard for Lindsay (inaudible)
DYER:
This is not helping Julie Gillard though right now. Bringing it out now
RIPOLL:
Well, look it doesn't really matter. I mean, honestly, it doesn't really matter. He has written a book about his views about his experiences and in his times. We could all do that. We could all write a memoir of our time. I could write mine and it would have a different prism of view. But I wouldn't expect others to necessarily agree with my view because it comes from a different perspective as to what the caucus did. It wasn't about any individual it was about what a caucus did; a group about where they were heading into the future. The fact is, we're still in government, in 2012. We've still managed to deliver 403 bits of legislation through the Parliament. We've still managed to govern this country well and we're heading back to a surplus and we've got a strong economy. I mean, these are things that are inescapable, so I think we've done a good job.
DYER:
Ok, so Lindsay Tanner. Over to you Mr Ciobo.
CIOBO:
Oh look Nicole, I just want to put on the record that if Bernie did write a book, I'd buy a copy mate because I want to support…
RIPOLL:
You'd be in it Steve.
CIOBO:
I want to support you, I want to help you.
DYER:
Would you dedicate it to him? That's what I want to know.
RIPOLL:
I wouldn't go that far. Come on.
CIOBO:
Look, I think, I mean, I agree with Bernie of course you'll have past politicians on both sides of the political divide that have an urge to provide commentary. I think though what Lindsay Tanner's insight provides today though is consistent with what the Coalition's been saying about the Labor party and the vibe that we've picked up for some time now which is that this is a very divided and dysfunctional Labor party that's managing Australia. I mean, you know, Bernie is a strong Julia Gillard supporter. He used to flat with Kevin and you know (inaudible).
RIPOLL:
Let's not get in to the too personal stuff here ok.
CIOBO:
Obviously they had some kind of falling out, but the reality is that we saw in Labor caucus last sitting week, five backbench MPs stand up and say where are we getting the money from. We don't have the funds available. We shouldn't be going down this path. We've got Lindsay Tanner now, you know, who's also attacking the lack of leadership from the Labor party and I think it's pretty endemic throughout the Labor party that they are very bitterly divided.
RIPOLL:
Wishful thinking Steve. This does really cause me to smile because we talk about divisions. I mean, let's have a look at the reality. The liberal party after we came to Government in 2010, Tony Abbott told his side that in six weeks we'd be gone, there'd be a fresh election and then that blew out to six months and six months and they haven't stopped the clarion call every day. Call an election. Call an election. We'll get to one mate. In constitutional time; three years. That's what a Government is there to do; serve the people. Not every day cause you don't like it. The divisions in the Liberal party couldn't be any wider. It's the Grand Canyon of politics. From Barnaby Joyce on one hand, Cory Bernardi on the other, the right of the right of the right, within the right. I mean, these are incredible times on division. I mean, it's like a tinder box ready to go inside. Inside the Liberal party any moment now and don't forget Tony Abbott only got there by one vote internally. It's not all roses. Not a bed of roses on your side mate.
CIOBO:
Is this the best defence strategy coming from you Bernie?
RIPOLL:
I'm happy to spend all day talking about offence or defence. All good to me.
DYER:
Alright, moving away from party leadership. Yes, the election will decide all. Penny Wong and the public service. We've got experts today expressing scepticism about the pledge by the Finance Minister Penny Wong to take an extra half a billion dollars from the public service without touching jobs. This is a touchy subject in Queensland for obvious reasons, so if we could start with you Mr Ciobo.
CIOBO:
Well, I mean, Labor's already seen a reduction in the Federal public service of three or four thousand people. I hear in the media a lot of focus on the public service job cuts in Queensland. I've got to say, my experience out there on the street talking to people is that people understand that the number of public servants, and this isn't retrenchments, this is a reduction in the workforce. There are some retrenchments of course. But it's also natural attrition, it's also people choosing to take redundancy. But most importantly, the message that I get back when I talk with people is they understand that this is a smaller number of state public servants that have moved on under Campbell Newman than were new employment under Anna Bligh, and so our simple message is that the same thing's happening federally. We've seen a massively bloated bureaucracy, we've got the Labor party thinking that it's smart politics to attack us for wanting to make reductions in the federal public service. This is at the same time that we've seen federal Labor, through their efficiency divided and other initiatives, reduce the federal public service by three or four thousand people. So, you know, I think they're trying to have their cake and eat it too and we make no apologies for the fact that we want to see a smaller federal bureaucracy because that is one of the measures we need to take unfortunately to get Labor's debt under control.
RIPOLL:
Well, let me just respond by saying firstly the cake is moist and it's pretty good eating. I think Steve knows what I'm talking about. But anyway, look, it's not three or four thousand, it's three thousand people and it's through natural redundancies and it's voluntary. And if you can…
DYER:
Can I just jump in here and I don't want to take away your special time but I'll tell you the feedback I get from a lot of people who have taken voluntary packages is that I had no choice. So there's this ongoing discussion, if you like, from politicians, both sides, saying jobs won't be lost, it is natural attrition, it is to do with people taking these packages. But if you are in a position where someone says, yes you can stay for the next three months but… and I'm not just looking at you Mr Ripoll, I put this to Mr Ciobo as well, but if you stay then we can't guarantee you a job. So, what are you going to do? There's a good chance someone might take that voluntary package, so statistically it looks brilliant, but personally, it's not so great. So why aren't politicians being more upfront about what is actually happening at that end of the scale.
RIPOLL:
Well, I think we are being very upfront. So let me put it another way. Let's put it into context. I don't personally agree with what you've just described as being the case, not federally. Federally 3000 people are, over a period of time, in an Australian public service which is 250,000 people, vastly different and larger across the whole country than the Queensland state for example, and we haven't gone and just screamed from the rooftops with glee about sacking 14,000 directly and even going to the extent of changing what is defined as front line and not front line. There is an enormous difference in doing that and at the same time we are being criticised, I think for the efficiency dividends. But have a look where they're coming from. They're coming from travel budgets, they're coming from office spend, they're coming from a whole range of areas on travel, on the way documents are prepared, rather than being printed now, they're being all done online, a whole range of efficiencies.
DYER:
So it's efficiencies v jobs.
RIPOLL:
Absolutely, absolutely and we've…
DYER:
That's the difference that Labor's taking.
RIPOLL:
Well, the record's there to be seen. We've been in government for five years. This has only just come up in the last five minutes as an issue federally because they're trying to find some sort of a sop or some sort of, you know, a comparison to make with the 14,000 sackings at a state level. The reality is at the Commonwealth level the voluntary stuff I'm talking about is natural attrition. We're waiting for people to retire and maybe not replacing in certain areas and if we go back to defence what we've said is no one is getting sacked. This is about making sure you can do back-office efficiencies. There's a whole range of doing this stuff without going and sacking people and I think we've also made it clear to Queensland public servants that we're prepared to pick up the slack federally where they're going to be attacked at a state level.
DYER:
Mr Ciobo?
CIOBO:
Well, I don't think anyone should ever lose sight of the fact that no one, and I know this to be the fact with the Queensland government, this notion, and I do find it, you know, morally reprehensible that this argument is made that people derive some sort of pleasure by having to fire people and having to reduce the workforce. Make no mistake, if this previous Labor government in Queensland had kept their books under control, hadn't let debt spiral out of control, this wouldn't need to happen. I mean, no one is doing this because they think it is fun. They are doing it because it is absolutely essential to restore this state's credit rating, to reduce borrowing costs, to reduce interest and to get Queensland back on track and it is exactly the same thing, Nicole, for us federally, we're not going in to this thinking oh won't this be fun, let's reduce the federal public service. No, we're doing it because we believe it is an obligation that we owe to future generations of young Aussie kids to say we are not going to continue down this debt pathway. So that they have to take twenty years to repay the debt.
DYER:
Yep. And I think that's where we leave it. Inside Canberra. Thank you very much gentlemen, I appreciate that. Two federal members there Moncrieff Steven Ciobo, Federal member for Oxley Bernie Ripoll. Thank you.
RIPOLL:
Thanks Nicole.
CIOBO:
Cheers.