SUBJECTS: Interest rates, National Legal Profession Reforms, Alan Jones, Ross Garnaut and China, community crime prevention.
DYER:
My next two guests, just making themselves comfortable.
John Laws: Did you enjoy it?
Leigh Sales: I did enjoy it, did you?
Laws: I loved every minute.
DYER:
And I hope that is the message they walk away from when we get Inside Canberra underway today. Or we could just, come on, you know I'm right, it's so hard not to keep playing Mr Laws after his appearance on 7.30 last night. A big welcome if I may, Bernie Ripoll Federal Member for Oxley and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer, and Steven Ciobo, Federal Member for Moncrieff. Gentlemen good morning.
CIOBO:
Good morning.
RIPOLL:
Good morning Nicole.
DYER:
Did you see the interview.
RIPOLL:
No, I didn't. But I saw the pictures, the still picture and it's all I needed to see.
DYER:
It's a smile on your dial. We will get to John Laws and the subject matter for which he was on the program. But first, Wayne Swan and rate cuts. On AM this morning, Treasurer Wayne Swan called out Shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey on something he may or may not have said on last night's television show The Project. Let's have a listen.
Wayne Swan: Well I don't think there's any justification for the banks refusing to pass it through in full. In fact, I was quite shocked to see Mr Hockey on The Project last night saying he thought it was OK that they quibbed some of this rate cut, which I think is deserved by Australian families with mortgages and by small businesses. The fact is that their net interest rate margins are back at the level they were prior to the Global Financial Crisis.
DYER:
Sabra Lane followed up with an interview with Mr Hockey.
Sabra Lane: Joe Hockey, you're pretty cranky this morning, you've just head the Treasurer say that you said on tele that the banks were OK to 'crib', I think his words were, some of the Reserve Bank cut yesterday. Did you say that?
Joe Hockey: Well not at all. And this Government has a major problem with the truth. And the fact of the matter is I have said repeatedly the Coalition expects the banks to pass on the interest rate cuts in full, particularly given that the Reserve Bank has identified that the banks are not under funding pressure. Now Mr Swan is outright telling lies.
DYER:
He said, he said. What do we make of all of that?
RIPOLL:
Oh, he said, she said, it's like…look I'm not too concerned either way. I think the important thing here is that the official cash rate is 3.25 per cent. It's good for home owners, it's good for people borrowing, but the other side of that coin is it's actually good for investors as well because we've still got interest rates. I think one of the lessons we've learned over a long period of time is you actually do need some interest rates. The last thing you'd want is to get down to close to zero or zero where you no longer have flexibility or options. Here we still have both.
CIOBO:
Well Nicole I mean, interest rates are a measure of the health of the economy. Interest rates are going down after the Reserve Bank is what we call 'easy monetary policy' they're doing so because they are concerned about the future of the Australian economy. What's clear is that Australia's economy faces pretty strong headwinds and that's a consequence of two factors. On the one hand, it's a consequence of international factors, especially with respect to the pace of economic activity in China and the second is that this government's made same bad decisions when it comes to the policy settings, but ultimately when it comes to Wayne Swan and Joe Hockey; Wayne Swan's out there claiming credit. I mean frankly, Wayne Swan has as much substance as a soufflé. As far as I'm concerned, this is a guy who only a matter of a couple of years ago described 3 per cent interest rates only a quarter of a per cent below what they are now as emergency levels. Claim emergency levels at 3 per cent. But at 3 and a quarter per cent, goes out there and claims it's all his economic genius.
RIPOLL:
Well, if, Steven, interest rates are going down are a measure of the economy…
CIOBO:
The health of the economy.
RIPOLL:
The health of the economy. I'd remind you back during the Howard years, the continual crowing about lower and lower interest rates and about how good that was for, not only Australia, the national interest and everybody else…
CIOBO:
No, no, no, no, no.
RIPOLL:
So I mean, in these things we've always got to say you can't have it both ways, because during the Howard era (inaudible) lower and lower interest rates and John Howard always claiming that you'll always have lower interest rates under a Liberal government. Well, I'll actually tell you that we've got lower interest rates today, so… Look, I do agree with you though, it is a measure of the health of the economy, but it also says that we have good numbers and good fundamentals. Inflation is well and truly under control, unemployment and the jobless rate is still low and we hope to keep it that way although there are strains out there in the economy, globally as well as nationally.
CIOBO:
Bernie, you present a slightly misleading picture, mate. I mean the reality is that low unemployment isn't a function of your government. It was at a 33 year record low under the previous Coalition. Low debt is not a function of your government. You actually inherited $70 billion in assets. On every measure, the so-called success your government currently crows about are nothing but the leftovers of good economic policy for twelve years under the previous Coalition.
DYER:
You can have the final word, or moving on (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
I was going to say, I wasn't sure if you wanted me to have another go.
CIOBO:
He wanted to make it easier for you.
DYER:
Oh, you know, I'll just go and make myself a cup of tea, just call me if there is any blood shed. That's all I need to know.
RIPOLL:
Not a problem. Look, I think we can always have different views, and there are lots of different views even on either side on politics about where the economy is today and where it's going in the future, but you know, some of the fundamentals are just there presented as fact and I think interest rates coming down is just a reflection of where the world is and certainly that we are doing better than most.
DYER:
And consumers are certainly very keen to try and experience some of those cuts and that's not always forthcoming. I guess what always amuses me a little bit is when you have politicians from both sides saying the banks must do their duty and you sit back as an observer and go, yeah but are the banks really listening to politicians or are they just doing their own thing? I mean how much sway do politicians have over what banks are going to do anyway.
RIPOLL:
Well, in the end I think we've got a lot of sway because in the end we can change the rules and we can change laws and if you have a look at exit fees on mortgages, on loans, if you have a look at credit card fees in particular. I think one of the things I'm most proud of is the fact that now when people do get a credit card statement, a bill, it actually shows you how long it will take you to pay it off, if you pay the minimum payment, so on a $5000 debt on a credit card averages, it would take you 32 years to pay it off if you just paid the minimum payment.
DYER:
Even store cards are doing it (inaudible).
RIPOLL:
Yeah, so I mean, I think you can have a lot of influence. It's best if you could do it just through applying pressure, but sometimes you have to apply a bit more.
CIOBO:
And there's been some good initiatives Nicole. I mean, Bernie's raised on of them, it's an initiative under this government and we supported it because we think it's a good initiative. The issue more generally though is that really the best way consumers win is through a competitive economic environment. Banks will perform best, i.e. in the interests of consumers when they are under competitive pressure. I spoke earlier about bad policy decisions. The reality is that when this Government moved to guarantee banking deposits, they effectively wiped out competition in the banking sector. We've got the highest concentration of loans coming from the major four banks that Australia's had for in excess of something like two decades with nearly ninety per cent of all new loans written only by the major four banks. Now that underscores that there is a massive lack of competition now and that's the reason why the banks get away with not passing on the full interest rate saving.
DYER:
Yeah. We were speaking on the program yesterday small businesses are suffering because…
CIOBO:
Absolutely.
DYER:
They're being closed out of the process. Can I move on? National regulatory scheme for lawyers. Queensland's rejection of that scheme. I don't know how much you know about this, but one of the key reforms of the Council of Australian Governments is in tatters after the state government yesterday withdrew its support for a national regulatory scheme for lawyers that is due to begin next year. That means, I think, we've got two states, the scheme will cover just two states; New South Wales and Victoria. Is the scheme dead in the water?
RIPOLL:
Look, I'd like to think that it's not. I'd like to think that part of a seamless national economy where you give business, and in this case lawyers and others the opportunity to have one set of rules right across the country regardless of where they operate. It makes sense. It always makes sense. Because often these organisations they work for cover the whole of country not just one particular state. So it's just more efficient, it's just better and it's done in agreement. States can opt in, but I think just out of hand to just opt out and say we just don't want to be part of that. So what they now means…
DYER:
Well, they've also said the cost of creating a national regulator, they're concerned about that and at this stage, they're not joining says Queensland Attorney General Jarrod Bleijie.
CIOBO:
Well, I mean, Jarrod made the point as Queensland's Attorney General that 85 per cent of solicitors for example in this state are single practice, don't operate across state boundaries and his concern was that given such a large number of solicitors don't operate across state boundaries theirs is not real benefits to be gained, yet they will face increased compliance costs. We overcome a lot of this through mutual recognition. I mean, gee whiz, mutual recognition was a buzz word in mid to early 1990s with the national competition policy. So, fundamentally, who's right who's wrong? Well, you know, let the people decide. The Federal Government's out there arguing it's a step forward, the Queensland Government says it's a step backwards. Ultimately the profession will let their views know and their customers ultimately will know as well.
DYER:
Bernie Ripoll, Federal Member for Oxley, Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer. Steven Ciobo, Federal Member for Moncrieff. Can we move toward Alan Jones and John Laws and in fact because so many people are playing little snippets of it, just coming through on twitter; just watched it, very funny. Ah yeah. Anyway I won't read out some of those comments now that I've had a second glance at them. But firstly Mr Ripoll, will any members of the Government appear on Alan Jones' program again?
RIPOLL:
Well, I can only speak for myself and I won't because I haven't in the past. I've never been invited and I've no desire to.
CIOBO:
That's the pertinent point there Bernie.
RIPOLL:
I've no desire to.
DYER:
It's all about you Mr Ripoll, what about others?
RIPOLL:
Well, it's up to others to make that decision for themselves, but obviously…
DYER:
Well, surely there's been talks within the corridors.
RIPOLL:
People always talk, that's part of the reality. I think one of the most interesting things to see about both of those moments; the Alan Jones and the John Laws is isn't it wonderful to be fully unconstrained by any rules or responsibility. And then you have John Laws. Because the fact is there are some things that I think in my view you cannot say sorry for. Some things are so deliberate and so hurtful and they're not things… it's not like you've stood on somebody's toe and you can say…
DYER:
No.
RIPOLL:
Excuse me, I beg your pardon.
DYER:
And there are very few people who disagree with that.
RIPOLL:
That's right.
DYER:
Even some of the callers to Jones' program yesterday said that.
RIPOLL:
It's just really disappointing. I just don't get it. I've said this to a lot of people. I just don't get it what Mr Jones was trying to achieve apart from just hurting someone. I just don't see any political advantage or any other advantage for him to do that. He seems to me a very angry person and anger seems to be internalised. He's angry at himself for something, but I just don't know what it is. I don't comprehend it.
DYER:
And some time on the couch with Mr Ripoll a bit later.
(inaudible)
RIPOLL:
If you'd like to ring in we can solve your problems as well.
(inaudible)
CIOBO:
You can see Bernie saying I'm listening like Frasier.
DYER:
Speak, I'm listening.
RIPOLL:
A lot of anger.
DYER:
Mr Ciobo, Tony Abbott did buy in to this and we are expecting, not necessarily a statement just about this but the Prime Minister Julia Gillard is expected to front a press conference. I haven't heard or seen anything about that so, no doubt she'll be asked about that. How much she says we don't know. But Tony Abbott made a strong enough statement, or did he about Alan Jones' comments. It was interested when someone asked him whether he was going to return to the program and he said 'well, I don't ignore big audiences.'
CIOBO:
Sure, sure.
DYER:
So, I mean, he's basically saying, I need to be able to communicate to his audience so it is not going to stop me. But, was his statement qualified or should it have been stronger?
CIOBO:
Well, I think it was fine Nicole. The reality is did Alan Jones say something objectionable and apologise for it? Yes he did. I was watching Bernie to determine how sincere he was, whether it was faux outrage or whether real outrage, I mean the reality is that if you look at offensive comments made by commentators, not just Alan Jones on the so-called right-side of politics, but people like Catherine Deveny for example who has said some horribly offensive things about people on the right-side of politics there wasn't any sort of conga-line of Labor people coming out then denouncing her comments. When people like, I think it was Mungo MacCallum made comments and even yourself Bernie would recall you made some less than charitable comments about Alexander Downer a few years back. The reality is that these types of comments don't, weren't met with Labor party outrage, yet strangely enough they are all outraged about Alan Jones after Alan Jones' apologised. In my view, you need to hold one standard to all. All of those comments both left and right are inappropriate. Alan Jones' apologised and I think it's time we moved on.
DYER:
Ok, and I think a lot of people are feeling they are a little bit Jones'd out after all of this.
RIPOLL:
I was Jones'd out many years ago.
DYER:
That's just because you've never been invited on the program Mr Ripoll.
RIPOLL:
That's right. Look for me and I do say, I am genuine about I think it is one step too far. I don't want to go on about the issue, but I just find some comments, we all do say some things sometimes we apologise for and that's part of being human. There are some things that are just, you know, they're in a speech, they're premeditated. I think you've just got to say, look have a bit of a think about this, this is actually just wrong. Anyway…
CIOBO:
Did you apologise to Alexander Downer?
RIPOLL:
I'm happy to apologise to him right now. Alex, I'm sorry.
CIOBO:
Good, there you go.
(inaudible)
RIPOLL:
I can't even remember what I said about him, it can't have been that good.
CIOBO:
I can tell you if you want.
RIPOLL:
I can tell you've got the script, good on you.
DYER:
Twenty-six past nine. It's like a metal cage there. Nothing goes out. Ross Garnaut and China. Are we heading for trouble? Are we putting all of our eggs in the China basket? I know there was an article in the Australian about this as well. Are you concerned that perhaps we're too reliant on China, that's what I'm trying to say.
CIOBO:
You know, Bernie and I, we were chatting about this earlier today Nicole. I mean, look, are we too reliant on China? That implies a certain amount of intent. The reality is that Australia is very dependent on China. Whether we are too reliant or not, I'm not sure it can be orchestrated, I mean, in a free market economy, these things tend to just happen. Certainly Australia's economic fortune is in very large part tied to China. I think it would be politically prudent for us to diversity further, away from China. I am concerned that China is facing a slowdown. When I say a slowdown we're talking economic growth at 7 per cent. But that notwithstanding, we have some serious challenges that we have got meet and when you consider there is all that economic tumult around, for example, Europe, there are some pretty strong economic headwinds out there.
RIPOLL:
Probably, a couple of points to make I suppose, one is that China is our largest trading partner, so that is significant. Whether we choose that or not, it's a good thing for Australia because we reap the benefits of that. So when there is a slowdown of course we feel it on the way back out as well. But, look, we've been saying for a lot of years, before we got to government in 2007 that you had to plan beyond the resource boom. That the resource boom wouldn't last forever and everyone's got a difference view as to how long it might last. My view is that next, of course it's agriculture and Australia's got a massive opportunity and it will be with China, it can be with the rest of the work as well. We've got to look beyond the horizon, beyond the current boom that's there and look at where opportunities and our strengths are. Australia exports 75 per cent of its agriculture. We could just grow that pie for a start, there's plenty of opportunity here. I think Australia's really well placed in the world. Yes, we are reliant on China, we're reliant on other markets as well and we ought to export all of those markets. We've got a lot of really good things to sell to the rest of the world. We've always been an export nation.
DYER:
Ok. Just one quick comment too, I did see you in the Gold Coast Bulletin this morning, Mr Ciobo. Talking about more CCTV for Surfers Paradise. This of course on the back of all concern over the Jill Meagher case.
CIOBO:
Sure.
DYER:
Given that that responsibility is very much a Gold Coast City Council responsibility, what pressure are you putting on the Council to make that happen.
CIOBO:
Well, we used to have a program, the previous Coalition have a program called the National Community Crime Prevention Program and we provided funding at a federal level for community crime prevention initiatives at a local level and, look, the Gold Coast unfortunately has got a bad rap lately and I'm concerned about it. It affects tourism. It affects employment. It affects economic growth on the Coast and that's why I was pushing it. Unfortunately Labor axed that program. It's gone. Can't get funding up for it any more. So my push is to put pressure on the Council and clubs to chip in more money to make the community safer and I also think it is time that the Federal Government step back up to the plate.
RIPOLL:
Well, we stepped up to the plate certainly in a whole range of areas and particularly infrastructure, I mean, if Steven wants to make funding commitment on this program this morning and explain where the money is going to come from that's fine. But we've done a lot in a whole range of areas particularly when it comes to infrastructure. If you look at roads, whether it's work we've done on the Ipswich motorway or work we're doing on the Bruce Highway, in a whole range of areas including in crime prevention at a whole range of levels. For example, drugs being imported into the country and particularly maybe heading to the Gold Coast. So, we are making a contribution at a Federal level and I think it's a good one. If there are other programs, they're all worthy, they're all worthwhile, but perhaps Councils should step up to the plate themselves and say this is important for our local city, for our city.
John Laws: Did you enjoy it?
Leigh Sales: I did enjoy it, did you?
Laws: I loved every minute.
DYER:
Do you know this'll be the last time that the three of us are in the same room at the same time. Did I enjoy it? I'm just going to smile. Federal MPs Bernie Ripoll and Steve Ciobo. Thank you very much.
RIPOLL:
Thank you Nicole.
CIOBO:
Thanks Nicole.