SUBJECTS: Preselections, lobbyists as political party office bearers, asylum seekers, Christmas Island, Gina Rinehart's increased stake in Fairfax and political discourse, Carbon price
An audio file of this interview is available on the ABC website.
Steve Austin:
Inside Canberra now with two Federal MPs. Bernie Ripoll, Federal Member for Oxley and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer for Australia. Bernie, good morning to you.
Bernie Ripoll:
Good morning Steve.
Steve Austin:
And Steven Ciobo, Federal Member for Moncrieff a seat based on the Gold Coast. Steven Ciobo, good morning to you.
Steven Ciobo:
Good morning Steve, how are you?
Steve Austin:
Very well. Bernie, Labor preselections. Are you in for the next election?
Bernie Ripoll:
I certainly hope so. But, look, like all preselections, I have put my name forward. I have paid my nomination fee but it is always up to the party membership to make that decision. I am very hopeful.
Steve Austin:
When are the announcements made Bernie? I'm just reading about this in the paper today.
Bernie Ripoll:
I think nominations close mid-July and by end of July.
Steve Austin:
Do you know if Kevin Rudd is renominating?
Bernie Ripoll:
I don't know personally, but I would assume, yes he is.
Steven Ciobo:
It's all over the papers today Bernie. He's out there.
(inaudible)
Bernie Ripoll:
It's not my number one priority Steven. (inaudible) I've got other things to do.
Steve Austin:
Fair enough.
Steven Ciobo:
He's averted his eyes Steve.
Steve Austin:
This is Inside Canberra both Steven Ciobo and Bernie Ripoll are in our parliament house studios in Canberra, in the nation's capital. I look forward to seeing them face to face in the studio here in the very near future.
Steve Ciobo, one for you from today's papers. Has Tony Abbott spoken with Mark McArdle. Who is Mark McArdle? Of course he is the Queensland Energy and Water, Resources Minister, or Mal Brough about their involvement in the James Ashby Federal Court complaint? Do you know?
Steven Ciobo:
Well, truthfully Steve, I wouldn't have the faintest idea. You know, I don't know what conversations Tony's had with other people, so. In no way shape or form am I trying to be tricky, but I think you need to ask that question to him.
Steve Austin:
So, you don't know at all?
Steven Ciobo:
I have no idea who Tony has spoken to.
Steve Austin:
Alright, ok. Let me ask you, I have just interviewed Clive Palmer and I no doubt you are well across the story. Let me ask you Steve, should paid political lobbyists be office bearers in the Liberal Party at a federal level or a state level. It doesn't happen in Queensland now, but at a federal level?
Steven Ciobo:
Sure. You know Steve, look I don't have a problem with it because fundamentally it comes down to this. I believe that political organisations are made up of its membership and its membership in the Liberal Party, the people who elect their leaders within the party organisation. Now ultimately, if someone is of the view that someone's employment, ie, because they are a lobbyist or something like that, is an interference on their ability to do the job appropriately. Although I think that is a message that should be put to the membership of the party and ultimately the membership will make a determination when it comes to things like Federal Council and conventions about whether or not they are going to elect somebody into that position. I certainly don't support the notion that people should, as a right, be excluded from being able to run for a position in a political organisation because they might happen to have, for example, you know, being a lobbyist or something like that. I think, fundamentally, we rely on democratic process to deliver up results. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad. But ultimately, people have a right to stand.
Bernie Ripoll:
Steve, if I could add, I think lobbyists have actually been given a bad name unjustifiably, because there are always a few bad eggs in every group, but in the end it is about disclosure and I know plenty of good people who do the work of, you know, lobbying on behalf of organisations, including not for profits, including really good groups that we all support; Meals on Wheels, Heart Foundation etc. They are good people doing a good job pushing their own barrows. It's about disclosure, it's about knowing who they represent, what their vested interest is, and as long as that's on the table and that's clear to everyone, I don't think anyone should be excluded. That's my view.
Steve Austin:
So when Clive Palmer goes to Federal Council this weekend, Steven Ciobo, with Bruce McIver, the Queensland LNP Presidents, instructions in his pocket to push for the scrapping of the lobbyists holding senior positions in the party, you're from Queensland, you don't support that move.
Steven Ciobo:
Look, I'm quite relaxed about them doing that because…
Steve Austin:
Do you support it?
Steven Ciobo:
I personally don't support it, no. That's the point I was just making. But I fundamentally, am also comfortable with them pushing for that. I mean, you see Steve, I think when you are involved in a political organisation, you tend to understand the importance of democratic principles. So they can put their case, they can argue their case. It will either be supported or it won't be supported. But you know what? I think the discussion is just as important as the outcome.
Steve Austin:
Alright
Bernie Ripoll:
I think the outcome is pretty important too.
Steven Ciobo:
That's why I said they are just as important as each other.
Steve Austin:
My guest is Steven Ciobo. Seven is the Federal Member for Moncrieff, for the LNP. Which is a Gold Coast-based LNP seat. Bernie Ripoll, Federal Member for Oxley and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer. The South Brisbane seat of Oxley. Asylum seekers gentlemen. The tragedy near Christmas Island. Against the backdrop of this, let me ask you Bernie Ripoll, why is the Nauru option so unacceptable to the government given that the islanders have made it clear they want the role back as they did under the prime ministership of John Howard? That did seem to at least be successful.
Bernie Ripoll:
Two points, one is it is an option and as far back as six months ago, we actually put that on the table. We said we wanted to negotiate. It's all coming out now in the open. That we've been wanting to do this. The negotiations are open. We're sitting at the table. We are waiting of others to join us there. We said we'll have a full review of the TPVs, the temporary protection visas. Yes, absolutely. We want a bipartisan approach to this. Nauru can be on the table. The fact about Nauru though is that it is a very expensive part to this problem, it cost the Howard government over $1 billion and every single person that went there ended up in Australia anyway.
Steven Ciobo:
That's completely untrue.
Bernie Ripoll:
Well, it's not completely untrue.
(inaudible)
Bernie Ripoll:
And the reality is, if we are ever going to find a solution to this, then we need a regional solution, not a Nauru solution. The government has a number of options available to it, but the strongest option it has right now is to say to our other partners in the parliament. Come and sit down with us, we will negotiate, we'll talk and let's find a compromise. Let's find a way to get through this.
Steve Austin:
So help me understand you position then, Bernie, so the Nauru option is on the table as far as the government is concerned from your point of view?
Bernie Ripoll:
Absolutely, it has been for quite some time.
(inaudible)
Steve Austin:
Your position is, all of those people who went to Nauru, 90 per cent of them ended up in Australia as citizens anyhow
Bernie Ripoll:
Absolutely, that is exactly right.
Steve Austin:
Steven Ciobo?
Steven Ciobo:
Well, Steve, I mean, first of all to pick up on Bernie's point. He said that 100 per cent of all people who went to Nauru ended up in Australia, that's incorrect. Not 100 per cent did. Those who were found to be refugees were resettled, those who were not, were not. The issue really is this though, Steve, you know, you go back prior to the election of this government, prior to this government changing Australia's border protection laws, we didn't have this problem, we had the problem in the early noughties, as they call them, in the early 2000's and what the Howard Government then did, was to do, basically, two initiatives. Temporary protection visas which say that people who come from a country where they claim that they need asylum, we provide them temporary protection visas in Australia before we settle them once conditions settle down, if they settle down. The second point is that we also enabled offshore processing of asylum seekers so that they understood, and the message was sent very strongly around the world, that if people sought to come to Australia, they would not be processed in Australia, they would be processed offshore and if they were found to not be genuine refugees, then they would in turn be sent back to the country from whence they came and would not be permitted entry into Australia. Now, that sent a very powerful message and the consequence of that message was that the number of illegal immigrants coming to Australia fell dramatically such that in the final year of the Howard government, there were three people, three, in detention. Now contrast that with this Labor Government's decision to alter the laws which is now seen a complete flood of boats and people coming down to Australia, which has seen unfortunately tragic consequences with so many people losing their lives. Now, our position is quite straight forward. The government is saying to us, we want you to compromise. Well, what we want is a solution and we know that our solution works. We know that if they just adopted our solution again, there wouldn't be a problem. And the only reason the government isn't doing that is out of sheer stubbornness because they refuse to go back to the policies that were working effectively before, and you know that is...
(inaudible)
Steve Austin:
Bernie Ripoll said that's on the table (inaudible)
Bernie Ripoll:
In fact it has been for six months. It has been for six months. We in good faith, sat down with the Opposition. And we have offered the leader of the Opposition, Tony's Abbott, and the others, to sit down at the table and negotiate with us. Nauru is an option.
Steven Ciobo:
It's more than Nauru Bernie, don't make out that is only (inaudible)
Bernie Ripoll:
This is the problem Steve.
(inaudible)
Steve Austin:
Just let Bernie Ripoll finish first, then Steven Ciobo, well come to you.
Bernie Ripoll:
This is the problem, that no matter what we put on the table, they say it is just not enough because in the end there only is one goal and that's for us not to have an outcome on this and that's because it's good for the Opposition to have the government suffer on this particular issue and that is the fact and the reality (inaudible).
Steven Ciobo:
No, that is an offensive comment Bernie.
Bernie Ripoll:
It might be offensive, but it's the truth.
Steven Ciobo:
It's offensive. To sit there and suggest that what we are doing is seeking to maintain misery for as long as possible.
Bernie Ripoll:
That's exactly what you are doing.
Steven Ciobo:
That is as obnoxious as comments (inaudible) when your government and ministers were shunning this as they then were (inaudible)
Bernie Ripoll:
We sat down in private discussions six months ago and even further than that and said we will work with the Opposition to find a position, to get this done. The answer has simply just been no.
Steven Ciobo:
That is not the case, the answer Steve is...
Bernie Ripoll:
Well, come to the negotiating table.
Steven Ciobo:
The answer is very straight forward, Bernie, as I said there were two elements, two elements, that work successfully in the past. That is offshore processing and its temporary protection visas. So will your government introduce temporary protection visas, yes or no?
Bernie Ripoll:
We're at the table waiting to negotiate.
Steven Ciobo:
Now Steve, this is the tricky kind of positioning that the...
Bernie Ripoll:
It's not tricky.
(inaudible)
Steve Austin:
Who do you want to come to the table to be able to say yes or no Bernie Ripoll?
Bernie Ripoll:
The Opposition.
(inaudible)
Bernie Ripoll:
We're sitting at the table waiting to negotiate. I can't make those decisions here on radio now, but I know that in any process when you're trying to find a solution, first thing you need to do it sit down at the table. We've been sitting at the table for many, many months. We're just waiting for the other side to come and join us. We've said it's all on the table, including Nauru, we'll do a full review of the TPVs and don't forget temporary protection visas encourage...
Steven Ciobo:
Full review of TPVs?
Bernie Ripoll:
Yes, we will.
Steven Ciobo:
You know Bernie, the issue is this. You can claim you're sitting at the table for as long as you want. What we made very clear is that in order to achieve an outcome on this, and we have been sitting at the table as well, so don't make out as if (inaudible), as if the Opposition have not been part of this process.
Bernie Ripoll:
What process?
Steven Ciobo:
Scott Morrison has been talking to Chris Bowen repeatedly for many, many months.
Bernie Ripoll:
In only one direction.
(inaudible)
Bernie Ripoll:
Which is take our policy or take nothing.
Steven Ciobo:
We had policies that worked. TPVs…(inaudible)
Bernie Ripoll:
You've just confirmed it. Take our policy or take nothing. We've said let's negotiate, that's not a negotiation.
Steven Ciobo:
So why would you not adopt a policy that has worked historically.
(inaudible)
Bernie Ripoll:
We have a policy including offshore processing and we've said we will look at TPVs.
Steven Ciobo:
But not TPVs.
Bernie Ripoll:
But let's also remember that TPVs encourage women and children specifically to get on boats.
(inaudible)
Steven Ciobo:
Quite to the contrary actually, what it does is it stops people wanting to come to Australia.
Steve Austin:
Gentlemen.
Steven Ciobo:
That's the reason why there were so few asylum seekers coming to Australia.
(inaudible)
Steve Austin:
If you have just tuned in, this is 612 ABC Brisbane and ABC digital. Inside Canberra with two Federal MPs from Queensland. Bernie Ripoll, Federal Member for Oxley and Steven Ciobo, Federal LNP Member for Moncrieff. Can I put to you both that the reason why I said, why can't we just reinstate the Nauru solution, given that the Nauru islanders want it themselves, and that apparently it works, is that it looks like, for reasons of political one upmanship, both sides are scoring points from people's lives and loss of life in this issue.
Bernie Ripoll:
Steve, we have put forward an arrangement with Malaysia which we believe will work and it will work because it is offshore processing and what it means is that those who are genuinely seeking asylum that have been waiting, some of them up to twenty years, in camps around the world and are coming through an orderly process through the UNHCR and they have been allocated to us, we will take those people on board, so that's what we are trying to achieve and we are also trying to stop boats coming over. We don't want people to lose their lives. We are sitting at the table. We've stretched the hand out and said come and sit down and negotiate. This has not happened and in fact the Opposition have made absolutely clear they will not negotiate. They've said they will not accept any change or difference to their policy.
Steve Austin:
Steven Ciobo
Bernie Ripoll:
We're still there, let's negotiate. I mean, we could argue this all day and it's not up to Steve and I to make these decisions. I'm not part of that negotiating team, neither is Steven. But, you know, in terms of what we can say here today is, let's all just sit down at the table and try to find a way. There are good people on the liberal side, there are good people on the Labor side and I believe that on all sides and actually do want to find a solution. You can't get to that point unless you actually genuinely sit down and say, yeah ok, it is on the table for negotiation.
Steve Austin:
Can either of you name a day when that will be on the table, and that it will be resolved? Because this can't go on.
Steven Ciobo:
Steve, the issue is this, I fail to understand, despite the way that Bernie dresses up his language, you know, that the Labor Party is all about trying to resolve this and the Opposition is the roadblock. Apart from the fact that that is an inaccurate portrayal of the situation, what it comes down to is this, that is that there are two fundamental elements that are required to successfully deter people smugglers from running an illegal trade to bring people to this country. Under the Labor Party, this trade has flourished. We now have had 20,000 people arrive in this country over 330 boats ever since Labor changed the laws. Now under the policies that previously existed, this was not the case and so, you know, I think that reasonable Australians recognise that when we say there must be temporary protection visas, and we say that there must be offshore processing, there is a reason why we say it because it has worked historically (inaudible). Hang on Bernie, I gave you a good chance.
Bernie Ripoll:
Sorry, you go.
Steven Ciobo:
To argue that we therefore are not approaching this in good faith is not accurate.
Steve Austin:
Final go Bernie Ripoll, but I think we'll move on.
Bernie Ripoll:
Thank you. Sure. Let me just respond by saying this. A senior Liberal yesterday was quoted by Peter van Onselen in the paper as saying while this is hurting Labor, let the bodies pile up.
Steve Austin:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane and ABC digital. My guests are Bernie Ripoll Federal Labor member for Oxley. Steve Ciobo, Federal Liberal Member for Moncrieff. Gentlemen, let me just ask you as an aside, a number of listeners have sent me emails and I have promised I would ask this question. Why do we have Christmas Island in the first place, given how far away it is from Australia? It's only about 487 kilometres from Jakarta, yet it is 2000, nearly 3000 kilometres away from the nearest Australian territory. Why do we have it?
Bernie Ripoll:
Well, Steve it is part of our broader Australian territories, just like the ACT and Northern Territory, Jervis bay, Cocos Islands...
Steve Austin:
But this one is just off the coast of Indonesia?
Bernie Ripoll:
Norfolk Island, Australian Antarctic Territory. It's part of the greater Australian territory and it's got some very important historical significance. Including during World War One, there was lots of phosphate mining during that time and also when Nauru was under German protectorate.
Steve Austin:
Ok, so, let me rephrase my question. Why do we keep it?
Bernie Ripoll:
One is, the people there are Australian citizens, so that would be quite an affront to Australians to actually say we are not going to keep you. It would be like saying to the Norfolk islanders, well, we are just going to carve you away. But is an important strategic part of Australian territorial waters, it's important for our security and the fact that it has lots of historical significance in World War One and World War Two.
Steve Austin:
So it's a big security blanket for Australia, Bernie Ripoll?
Bernie Ripoll:
Well it's part of that, it's a whole heap of things.
Steve Austin:
It's just off the coast of Indonesia.
Bernie Ripoll:
It is, that's right.
Steve Austin:
It's only 480 odd kilometres from Jakarta but 5000 odd from Canberra.
Bernie Ripoll:
And just like the Australian Antarctic territory is a long way the Australian shoreline, it's important part of Australia as well.
Steven Ciobo:
I'd also make the point, Steve, I suspect that Bamaga is quite close to PNG, in fact closer than Christmas Island is to Indonesia, but I don't think we are going to give up Cape York any time soon.
Steve Austin:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane. Now tell me about, first of all Bernie Ripoll, how your government feels at the moment about Gina Rinehart and her move on Fairfax and increasing her stake in Channel Ten. For some time now both Wayne Swan and Prime Minister Julia Gillard have been attacking these three Australian billionaires, Gina Rinehart, Andrew Forrest and Clive Palmer. But only Gina Rinehart has made a deliberate play for a media organ which would potentially give her great influence in the Australian scene. What's the position on Gina Rinehart's getting any seats for Fairfax?
Bernie Ripoll:
Well, my view is, and I suppose the view of a lot of people I have spoken to is their concern that any one individual person would have too much influence. Too much influence over any media organisation. Media independence is very important because it is part of the fabric of democracy. it is part of reporting fact and news. So, I think that's really important but she's quite entitled like any other Australian regardless of how wealthy she is, to buy shares and to seek board positions, but she also has responsibilities that are attached to that. And some of those would be editorial independence, you know, no one wants to see the Sydney morning herald...
Steve Austin:
Why? Rupert Murdoch doesn't have it. Why does she have to have it if news limited doesn't?
(inaudible)
Bernie Ripoll:
Steve, everyone should have it. Everyone should subscribe to those views and it is part of democracy and it is part of the Australian fabric of news and facts and I think that all Australians have a similar view. I don't really care how wealthy she is. Anyone can buy shares in a particular company and if there's a takeover, that's fine, that's up to her to do that, put her money wherever she sees fit and if she seeks a number of board positions, that's up to the board to decide.
Steve Austin:
Steve Ciobo.
Bernie Ripoll:
Sorry, look, I was just going to say just on these three individuals, let's not make them out to be three ordinary Australians. They are not ordinary in any sense, but particularly for this sense, they insert themselves vigorously into the political debate and discourse in this country and therefore make themselves part of the debate, so they can't just in the good times when they want to make comments, make comments and say no one can make comments back. When you insert yourself into the political debate you are part of politics.
Steve Austin:
Steve Ciobo?
Steven Ciobo:
Well, Steve, the sheer hypocrisy is quite outstanding frankly, I mean hardly a day goes by when you turn in the TV and you don't see Paul Howes or some new leader from the trade union movement commenting on all sorts of things from border protection through to the carbon tax so, the notion that in is some way this is just something that the likes of Clive Palmer or Gina Rinehart seem to do is absurd. That is not the situation. I actually think we should have a democratic discussion in this country that involves people from all walks of life. I also think that if someone wants to lay on the table several hundred million dollars and own a company that produces newspapers, well, then that's their right. It's their money, they've earned that money and they're entitled to spend that money and run it according to the law as they see fit. Now there's a newspaper called Green Left Weekly. Now I don't particularly like the old Green Left Weekly, Bernie Ripoll probably reads it religiously and probably has a subscription for all I know. But that not withstanding...
Bernie Ripoll:
No, I don't.
Steven Ciobo:
I'm not trying to shut down his newspaper because it happens to be the one that he likes. In my view, if people have put their own money on the table, if it's not taxpayer funded, if they are complying with the Corporations Act then they have a right to run their business as they see fit. Ultimately they are accountable back to the owners of that business. The shareholders and themselves who risk the capital every single day when they make decisions. Now what we know is going on is that print media is in decline, it has been in decline for quite some time. We are seeing multi-platform media on the up, that's including things like website and social media and Internet broadcasting and all those things. So, to suddenly say to someone who is effectively rescuing a company that has dropped from, I think, somewhere around $17 down to 90 cents, I think (inaudible)
Steve Austin:
A nearly 90 per cent share price drop.
Steven Ciobo:
There, that's what I am saying, it seems a bit rich to me.
Bernie Ripoll:
I agree with Steve completely, I have no problems with what he is saying because that is exactly what I said and those three individuals, or Paul Howes, or any other individual, if they insert themselves in the political debate, are open for criticism and being part of the political discourse. I agree 100 per cent. That's exactly what I said.
Steve Austin:
Alright, gentlemen, finally, I've got 60 seconds left for each of you. On Sunday, July 1, the carbon tax kicks in. Bernie Ripoll from the Labor Party, what's going to happen?
Bernie Ripoll:
Well, Sunday is an important day because, in the end, Monday will come round and people will go back to work and we will have the creation of new opportunities, there's new jobs, there's a new low-carbon future for Australia. What we're seeing in this debate we have had now, for many, many years, particularly in the last few months, there's a whole heap of companies which are involved in either coal or aluminium or steel, or whatever it might be, they are actually investing new money, they are actually growing, they are expanding they've got great futures and they're actually creating new jobs. New future jobs, and while there is a cost attached, that is why the government is providing compensation. In twenty years time I'm very confident, I'll be very proud in twenty years time to say that I was part of a government that made a structural economic change that led us into the future. It's always hard to see twenty years ahead, the most difficult decisions are always those, just like Keating did in the structural financial reforms in this country, including floating the dollar, that have led to such a fantastic and strong economic position that we have today.
Steve Austin:
Steve Ciobo. Sunday, July 1, carbon tax kicks in, what's going to happen Steve Ciobo.
Steven Ciobo:
Well, what it is Steve, is the crystallisation of a lie. We have a Prime Minister who said, seven days out of the last election, said explicitly there will not be no carbon tax under the government that I lead. That lie is now coming to bear on Sunday when they are introducing the world's biggest carbon tax. Now, the world's not going to end on Sunday, but I will tell you what will happen Steve, it's going to get a lot more expensive, we're going to see over the coming quarters the price of electricity increase by another ten per cent or more as a result of the carbon tax. We are going to see the consequences of the indirect extra costs that every business must now pay move across the economy. We are going to continue to see pressure put on our manufacturers, who are already struggling with a very high Australian dollar, really come under more pressure because of the carbon tax affecting their labour cost, sorry, affecting their cost base (inaudible)
Steve Austin:
I'm going to lose the line Steven Ciobo. I have to leave it there. Thank you very much gentlemen for your time once again. I'll see you in the studio next week I hope.
Steven Ciobo:
Thanks Steve.
Bernie Ripoll:
See you later, thank you very much Steve.
Steve Austin:
Bernie Ripoll, Federal Labor Member for Oxley, Steve Ciobo, Federal Liberal Member for the Liberal Party for the seat of Moncrieff. And all being well, I think they join me in the studio here in Brisbane at the same time next week.