SUBJECTS: US Election, Coalition policy costings, Live animal exports, Bruce Highway
A podcast and mp3 download of this interview is available on the ABC website.
AUSTIN:
This is modern politics. Here we are on radio. I am standing here with Steve Ciobo, Liberal Member for Moncrieff and Bernie Ripoll, Labor Member for Oxley. Both these guys have got their heads down and they're going through… Is it a Twitter stream, or the SMS? Are you tracking the US election or what are you talking to your misses or what's going on?
CIOBO:
We were just tweeting about this morning.
RIPOLL:
No, we're checking what each other are saying about each other before we've even started.
AUSTIN:
Via Twitter.
RIPOLL:
We could just ask each other (inaudible).
CIOBO:
That's awkward.
AUSTIN:
Gentlemen, good morning.
CIOBO:
Good morning.
AUSTIN:
This is inside Canberra where we try and let local voter,s electors know and interested persons about what's happening sort of in sort of the national debate in Canberra. What's the tip gentlemen? You guys have the inside sort of running on Washington since you're both movers and shakers. Steve Ciobo?
CIOBO:
Thank you for handballing that to me Bernie. Look, I don't know. Obviously it's going to be a very close race. Every bit of media, every poll you've seen. It's going to be exceptionally close. I would like to see that of course the Romney and Ryan ticket get up. There's no doubt that I think that they have the best plan for the US's future but ultimately I don't think going know mate. It's just been such an incredible election. Romney picked up so much momentum after that first debate. It was going very strongly.
AUSTIN:
He got wiped out by a hurricane though, didn't he?
CIOBO:
Yeah, exactly, hurricane Sandy is sort of changed the field. Now whether that is only going to be only be the East coast or whether that will also extend to the West coast of the United States will be fascinating.
AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll?
RIPOLL:
Well this is going to sound a little bit soppy but everyone knows who I would support.
AUSTIN:
You are a sensitive man Bernie. That's why we like you. You're a sensitive new age guy.
(inaudible)
RIPOLL:
I actually think that the best outcome would be to have a clear result, no matter how close it is. The last thing anyone would want to see I think is an outcome decided by a court or a judge. That could be the case in the United States and I think that would be really detrimental to where the global economies are and where we're at and that's why I said look, I don't want to sound too soppy but I think just any outcome will be a better outcome than a judge deciding who runs the United States.
CIOBO:
Steve, he's battle scared after the minority government in Australia. That's why.
(inaudible)
AUSTIN:
Well, I want to ask you about that in just a moment. Does it matter for Australia who wins? I had Joe Hockey here yesterday, we had a chat. He said, look both sides of politics in Australia have friends on both sides of politics in the US really. He didn't think it made that much difference. What about you guys? Do you think it makes much difference who wins over there for Australian interests?
CIOBO:
Well, I mean I certainly do. There is clearly a difference of approach between the Republicans and the Democrats. But ultimately theirs is a slightly different system to the Australian system of course Steve. Because the President has particular jurisdiction over foreign policy but a lot of the Congressional decisions deal with the Budget and you know so it's a slightly different flavour in the sense that if the Republicans were to win the Presidency they would probably win the majority of the Congress but that is not always the case of course.
AUSTIN:
Ok, Bernie Ripoll. Does it matter?
RIPOLL:
Look, it only matters for us in terms of our political views but I think globally in the end whoever runs the United States will work very hard to do a good job for everybody. I'd be more concerned about their foreign policy and where they stand on those issues because they have a more direct impact on us and the rest of the world. But certainly you know I think Obama would do a great job and particularly re-elected, given four more years if he has more of a majority so he can actually achieve what he's trying to do.
AUSTIN:
I'm just going to lift the microphones for you a little bit gentlemen. I know you are slouching. I'm the short one here so I'll just bring the desk up for you. Let me ask you something. I was talking with a friend this week. In Western democracies around the world. Western democracies appear to be radically divided at the moment. In the UK, the conservatives only won power with support of the Liberal Democrats. Otherwise they couldn't have formed a Government. The US looks equally divided and we'll know the outcome possibly today but maybe over a week. Then that would be really a telling thing. Here in Australia we have the same issue that your side of politics Bernie won office after forming a coalition with Independents essentially to win office and support of the Greens on certain issues. The whole of those sort of key western democracies around the world are divided right down the middle between what used to be known left and right. What does this indicate?
RIPOLL:
Well, I know that it's actually not just western democracies. That it's all governments and national governments of whatever creed. If you look through the Arab world, the Arab spring. If you have a look through the Middle East. If you have a look…
AUSTIN:
Well, they are going through a transition, they are going through a shift aren't they?
RIPOLL:
But I think that it's the same thing in a sense and look, for me what it means there is a great deal of uncertainty and change going on globally and that is being reflected that people really aren't sure. There is more polarisation in terms of who they support politically between left and right and I think in a lot of areas there's more of a distinction now between certain policies of left and right and people are being forced to choose because they are presented with some harder choices. But it also means that I think it reflects generally how communities are divided which is sometimes you know down the line, you know, 50/50. We're seeing it in the United States and we've seen it here in Australia. We have seen it in the United Kingdom. So I think it is just reflected of global economic times. They are tough and people aren't sure.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, any thoughts?
CIOBO:
My first thought was to think that we seem more divided than single, single party countries obviously.
AUSTIN:
For obvious reasons. (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
I think they're still getting 98 per cent of the vote in some countries.
CIOBO:
I think, see this is an interesting question. I mean, is the level of support that different? I don't think it is. The reality is that if you get an election outcome that is 50.1 per cent versus 49.9 per cent it doesn't take much to then go to 51 or 52 per cent versus 49 or 48 per cent. Yet the impact in terms of the number of representatives in the House of Representatives or indeed in the UK Commons or indeed in US Congress of course is profound. So, whilst it does seem to be very close, by the same token we are talking very small differences in percentages here. One per cent either way can make a massive difference to the representation on the floor. So, I think it's easy to get caught up in that. Ultimately though, what's happened? The world's gone through a period of incredible tumult. We've gone through a situation where for the last four decades or longer the size of government in every country has grown. So now, more and more people are on government assistance welfare payments than ever before and yet now we have reached this critical crunch stage where there are 30, 40, 50 per cent of the population living on some kind of redistribution of taxpayers money but no longer is that system sustainable. And so you've now got this situation where I think all of that is starting to realign itself and people are having to make decisions about where they think ultimately they can go.
AUSTIN:
Now, Australia here is the one country that is out of step fortunately from Europe, the UK, the US. The Europe, the UK and the US are all in massive debt. Australia is not. We're only at about 16 per cent of GDP which is not a worry for most economic commentators. We uniquely probably are the only country in a good position debt-wise compared to the rest of the democratic economies around the world. Bernie Ripoll?
RIPOLL:
Certainly I have a strong view in this area and I've expressed it on this program a number of times. The latest figure I have is that we are still sub-10 in terms of debt to GDP. It's about 9 per cent, 9.4, 9.5. But if you look at all the numbers – you wouldn't just look at one number and say well that's it – you'd have to look across the board. Yes, we are part of a global economy, yes we are doing better, yes debt is under control, inflation is under control and the fact that interest rates didn't come down and we still have some interest rates at 3.25 per cent official cash rate means that we still have an economy, that we still have flexibility and that we still have for people who are self-funded retirees and others they can still get some return on their money. Look, we are well-placed. If I could just add a quick point to what Steve was saying before in terms of those fine margins in election outcomes and seats. The great thing about Australia is we've got a compulsory voting system. Which means pretty much everybody gets a say and when it is close you actually know that's the peoples will. Whereas in the United States it's voluntary and then the President in the United States is elected by sometimes less than 20 per cent of the population because that's the most number of people if you split it half half that actually vote and I actually that that's…
AUSTIN:
So is the presidency decided by less than 20 per cent of the (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
Absolutely, it's been as low as 17 per cent.
CIOBO:
Steve, I'm not sure if Bernie is trying to employ a clever ruse to get off the issue off debt and deficit. I'm going to take it in good spirit.
RIPOLL:
Always.
CIOBO:
I've got to come back to this issue you said Australia's level of debt not being too bad. (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
Well, the economists I speak to they don't raise alarm bells.
CIOBO:
Look, I've touched on this before and I'll make the point again. This has nothing to do with the Labor Party. I mean the reality is and you cannot deny this is a historical fact. We had $96 billion of debt. The former Coalition Government under Howard and Costello paid that right back. Paid it off. All the public debt gone.
AUSTIN:
So they're getting credit for what guys did you're saying?
CIOBO:
And not only did we leave no debt, we actually had built up a surplus of savings of $50 billion.
AUSTIN:
In the Future Fund.
CIOBO:
Now these guys have been in for 5 years, 5 years Steve, and we've gone from $50 billion in savings to now $145 billion in debt again. The reason – and people might sort of grown at this – but the reason I labour this point Steve is because what that's saying. That's saying that the future generation of Aussie kids will have to be the ones that pay that debt back. To me as a member of Parliament with children nothing offends me more than the fact that this Government feels that it's their right to put the next generation into debt and deficit that they have to pay off for two decades because they want to fund their spending commitments now.
RIPOLL:
What we're doing Steve is making sure you and everyone else is still got a job so that you're kids aren't in a family of unemployed people.
CIOBO:
This is the difference between…
RIPOLL:
But at least we agree on this. That Australian debt is low. That's what he said. Because…(inaudible) You said because of something we might disagree as to what that reason. But at least we agree it's low.
AUSTIN:
Let me ask you then Bernie Ripoll. Against this backdrop, why was it necessary for the office of the Treasurer to take Coalition costings, give them to the public service (Treasury), get them to cost them, then leak them and leak then them out of context. In other words, in a deliberately misleading way. That surprised many. There's been a fair amount of commentary on common affairs programs this morning. Why did the Treasurer's office do that?
RIPOLL:
Well, I think there's a couple of points. One is that it's not uncommon for the Treasury to do costings on all manner of public policies because the public do have a right to know and the Treasury have to do their work. The Treasurer's Office has said that they have released that information.
AUSTIN:
They admitted leaking it.
RIPOLL:
Yeah, they said they released it and I am happy enough that being the case. I think the hysteria around this really is why is the Coalition so upset? I mean if the figures were good they should be jumping for joy and go “look, how good we are”, but the reality is the figures are really bad. The Treasury is not the only office that you can get costings. So the Coalition can go off and get costings though (inaudible).
AUSTIN:
I'm going to have to let you respond to that Steve Ciobo.
RIPOLL:
Oh, of course and I expect you to. But the PBO can do it, the Parliamentary Budget Office. Joe Hockey now says, look we'll let the PBO do costings on it in February and I say why not do it today? You've had the policies for a long time. They can get economists to. In the end no one should hide what their policies cost. You got a policy out there so tell people how much it's going to cost.
CIOBO:
So Bernie, if no one should hide it Bernie, then why did your Government move to deny access to the costings on the Greens policy your alliance partner in Government?
RIPOLL:
Well, that's not the case. (inaudible)
CIOBO:
You did, you moved to deny that information being published. You're all about transparency except when it comes to the Greens. Why?
RIPOLL:
No no no, and no one would say we'd be supporting the Greens in terms of… (inaudible)
CIOBO:
You're in an alliance with them in Government.
RIPOLL:
No, what we have is an arrangement in Government.
CIOBO:
An alliance, yes. (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
Arrangement, alliance. Let's call it (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
Potato, potato. Well, but in the end everyone knows where we are at. (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
Yeah, we do, we have a written agreement.
AUSTIN:
So, just answer the question Bernie and I'll come back to Steve Ciobo. So, your point is Bernie Ripoll?
CIOBO:
Where's the Greens policy costings?
AUSTIN:
Steve, let him speak.
RIPOLL:
My point is, look, we can talk about the Greens or we can talk about the Treasurer's office but the Treasurer's office has said they released that information. It is not unusual for Treasury to be doing that and it's not unusual for a Treasurer or another member of Parliament or another Minister to actually get those costings done and then tell people what those costings are because they have a massive impact on people. They have a massive impact on business. These are policies that cost $4 plus billion and people ought to know… and it's for business. (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
But business have come out today and said we're not at all concerned because there were certain things that were left out (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
Then what's the problem?
AUSTIN:
What the problem is? Isn't the problem the actions of the Treasurer's office. In other words politicising Treasury.
RIPOLL:
Well, I don't think it politicises Treasury. Treasury just do the work and provide a document with a number. Others may politicise it but from a Treasury perspective or a public servant perspective it's just another report. They don't politicise it and we are not politicising them either.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, your response.
CIOBO:
Look, I just find it galling frankly Steve. I mean, this is coming from the Labor Party who won't release the Greens costings and says well no, it wasn't policy so therefore we're not going to put that information out there.
RIPOLL:
Well, that's right.
CIOBO:
You know, it's such rank hypocrisy. It is extremely… I almost find it unfathomable. On the issue of the Coalitions policies we are happy to take it to the Parliamentary Budget Office. Bernie said well they are going to do it in February. The reason we are going to do it in February is because the Government hasn't got all the laws passed – the legislation – around the Parliamentary Budget Office yet. It's gone through the House of Representatives but not through the Senate. And our point is to say, well this needs to pass the Senate and if you Government had better control over the legislative agenda it would be through the Senate and our policy costings would be in with the PBO. But the other point I'd make is that this is to me the part the really betrays the bad faith that Wayne Swan has in relation to this Steve. Not only did he get Treasury to cost the Oppositions policies but he did it in a misleading way. Because he actually explicitly excluded from the costings the fact that we are giving a tax cut, abolishing the carbon tax, abolishing the mining tax and as I said the company tax cut. None of that is incorporated in the costings of course.
RIPOLL:
Well, that would make the position worse.
AUSTIN:
Is the Coalition worried about the politicisation of the Department of Treasury?
CIOBO:
Of course it's a concern Steve, but the bigger concern frankly is that Wayne Swan just obviously is not focussed on his actual job which is to return this Budget back to surplus. Instead he is playing political games.
AUSTIN:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane. My guests are Steve Ciobo, he's the LNP Member for Moncrieff based around the Gold Coast. Bernie Ripoll is the Labor Member for Oxley based on the South-West side of Brisbane. Let me ask you if I can move on. Four Corners ran another program on live cattle exports. This time involving sheep and the abuse of by people in Pakistan. This seems to be a consistent problem in customers that are Islamic Bernie Ripoll. And you heard Jock Douglas talk about cultural and religious influences I think was his phrase he used in a press conference yesterday. Is the Government at all worried about this?
RIPOLL:
Well, yes we are worried about everything to do with live export because it is a sensitive issue for a lot of Australians and it is a sensitive issues for Government and that is why we have done so much work in terms of reforming the supply chain process about having guarantees in place. We've done a lot of work in that area and that's been… (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
We're not going to suspend the live sheep export trade?
RIPOLL:
Well, I don't know whether we're going to do that or not. We went down that path a while ago to fix up the system and we've done that. We've now have a whole heap of standards and safeguards in place. This latest incident is an isolated incident. There is no question about that because if you compare it…
AUSTIN:
It's a one of?
RIPOLL:
It's isolated in the sense that if you look at the total live export trade and then look at this incident it's a very small part of it. That doesn't condone it. It's still abhorrent to see these things and it is sickening to see these things but the bottom line for Government is this: this is a very important trade for regional Australia and Northern Australia and it's a trade in those country and regional areas that we will continue to support but we will lift the standards. We will make sure that these things are done properly.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo?
CIOBO:
Well, I agree. From my perspective I think it is important that standards are lifted. I don't believe, I mean there are a number of Labor backbenchers and Greens and others that have come out saying lets end all live exports. I don't think that's the way forward Steve. The reason I don't think that's the way forward isn't because I you know wanna see animals put down inhumanely or anything like that. It's because if we don't provide Australian exports in this ares to these markets other countries will. It's that simple. Other countries will. Now the benefit of Australia doing it is that we can exercise some muscle. Flex the muscle and say we want veterinarians, we want safeguards, we wanna make sure we understand the supply chain management. All of that. Other countries may not adopt that same approach and in fact many of them won't. And so what will happen is that people will sit back here in Australia and feel good about themselves that it's not Australian sheep but they'll turn a blind eye to the fact that it's actually sheep from other countries that are being slaughtered inhumanely rather than educating on the ground in those market places about what needs to be done to treat animals humanely. And so I say engagement is a good thing and leads to better outcomes rather than knee-jerk lets pull out of the markets, pretend the problem doesn't exist and just navel gaze and say well all is good in the world.
AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll that's what Joe Ludwig says we're doing isn't it?
RIPOLL:
It is and I completely agree with Steve. Nobody wants to see cruelty to animals. It does turn your stomach. This is an important trade and the best thing we can do in making sure that you keep the trade going that you can still feed those countries is to make sure that we lift the standards. That's exactly what we're doing. We are engaging and I'm sure that Steve and his mob would do exactly the same thing if they were in Government, in our position.
AUSTIN:
26 minutes past 9. Can I ask you about the Bruce Highway. An action plan was done, a technical report which was undertaken by engineers and not politicians to identify areas to improve safety and more. Warren Entsch was quoted in today's Australian newspaper I think it was, expressing some concern about the planned upgrade. Can you guys cast any light on this? Is the Federal Government going to assist at all with the funding of a Bruce Highway upgrade which the State Government is seeking? Can you answer that at all Steve Ciobo? Are you on top of this story?
CIOBO:
Well, it's hard for me to answer it on behalf of the Federal Government obviously. I mean, I'd make the point that we've seen in real terms funding decreased on this important road project. I think though to touch upon the point that Warren Entsch makes and this is part of a broader issue as well Steve which is that as Members of Parliament – elected Members of Parliament – we have interactions, people talking to us on a daily basis. And I think that it is a real shame that too often Government loses touch of that and I'm not making this part of them. I am not saying Labor or Liberal but that bureaucrats and others lose touch of that and think that you know they've got to call in these experts on all these sorts of issues. They need to do that but they need to augment it with the real coalface knowledge that we have as elected Members of Parliament from dealing with people and groups about these kinds of issues and I believe that's the point that Warren's making. To say, he's got a lot of feedback that he could have put in as part of this report but was excluded from it.
AUSTIN:
Is the Federal Government committed to helping fund the upgrade of the highway?
RIPOLL:
Well, you bet ya we are. In fact we are the first Federal Government ever to commit serious money. $2.8 billion over seven years…
CIOBO:
That's not true.
RIPOLL:
…well, look, we did the Ipswich Motorway. We are doing the Bruce Highway. We are the first Federal Government to reengage with infrastructure on a National level. We started Infrastructure Australia, we started the Building Australia Fund and we have been absolutely committed to infrastructure since we got to Government. Before we got to Government but from the moment we hit the ground running, from the day we were elected in 2007 we commissioned projects. Ipswich Motorway, Bruce Highway, $2.8 billion nearly $3 billion on the Ipswich Motorway and a whole range other roads including helping the State Government…
CIOBO:
More Committees, more committees more (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
… including helping the State Government $500 million for Legacy Way and a whole range of projects. I am very proud of our infrastructure record. Happy to debate it any day of the week.
AUSTIN:
Did either of you have a win yesterday on the Melbourne Cup?
CIOBO:
No, I didn't.
RIPOLL:
Yeah, I did, because I didn't bet any money.
AUSTIN:
Wise man.
RIPOLL:
Well, actually look, I had a small loss, but anyway.
AUSTIN:
So you did bet?
RIPOLL:
Yeah, I was thinking.
AUSTIN:
You did bet? (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
The best win you can have is not (inaudible). It was a small… So the win was that I didn't lose a lot of money.
AUSTIN:
You did the office sweep? You did the $2 office sweep, did you?
RIPOLL:
Everyone likes to have a go.
CIOBO:
That's an own goal buddy.
RIPOLL:
Yeah, completely.
AUSTIN:
Thank you very much for coming. Bernie Ripoll, Federal Labor Member for Oxley. Steve Ciobo, Federal Liberal Member for Moncrieff.