SUBJECTS: American political advertising, compulsory voting, uranium sales to India, Order of Australia medals, Tony Abbott in Indonesia, measure of unemployment, 1200ks for Kids.
A podcast and mp3 download of this interview is available on the ABC website.
AUSTIN:
Before I go Inside Canberra with my two Federal MPs from either side of the political fence, later on in the Hidden Persuaders today we're going to take a look at a few American election ads on both sides. Let me play you one. This is an ad for Mitt Romney, who's the Republican candidate in the US, or the conservative. I guess my current guests might get a kick out of it as well. This is just a pointer to what is coming up later on this morning.
Insert: Now you, class of 2009…So now classes 2010..the class of 2011 you and your generation…you the class of 2012 has to offer…The last four years we have been told things will get better...Reassured by the countless slogans…Yes, we can…Sí, se puede…Change we can believe in…But, now, no I can't…And the most important lesson I've learned is that you can't change Washington from the inside…What…No, I can't…No, I can't…In 2008 I voted for President Obama…I voted for hope…But what I got was a bleak future that's forced me to move back in with my parents…Four years ago I voted for you, I voted for this…Those who tell us that we can't, we will respond with that timeless creed that sums up the spirit of a people, Yes, we can…I didn't vote for this…You can't change Washington form the inside…What we need is someone who can point a way forward and not at each other…what we need is a jobs plan instead of more slogans…leadership instead of more excuses…what we need… what we need… what we need… is Mitt Romney…You're right Mr President, no you can't, but we can't afford four more years of this.
AUSTIN:
Inside Canberra with Scott Buchholz who is a replacement for Steve Ciobo this morning, Scott is the Federal Member for Wright, his Queensland electorate. It's fairly rural I think Scott, thanks for coming in.
BUCHHOLZ:
Thanks Steve I appreciate mate.
AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll, complete in lycra because…he'll explain a little bit later on.
RIPOLL:
Thanks Steve.
AUSTIN:
Federal Labor member for Oxley and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer. Bernie, thanks for coming in.
RIPOLL:
My pleasure.
AUSTIN:
I quite like American political ads and I have to say I like them a lot more than Australian ads. Do you guys like them?
BUCHHOLZ:
They've got a bit more money to throw around (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
Is that was it is, is it?
BUCHHOLZ:
I had the opportunity to go over and work on McCain's campaign in Washington for a couple of weeks the last time around. Totally different machine over there. It is enormous. As Australian public are sick to the back teeth of an election campaign after six or eight weeks, these guys go for two years.
RIPOLL:
Yeah, it's an incredible…I'm not sure we would cope in the same way they do, but the thing that sticks out for me the most about American politics is that campaigns now cost up to a $1 billion dollars and I think that is enormous waste of money. Ad on top of ads on top of ads I think just goes too far. But the figure that sticks in my mind all the time is that the President of the United States is elected by less than 20 per cent of the American population.
AUSTIN:
Sorry, just say that again Bernie?
RIPOLL:
That the American President is elected by less than 20 per cent of the American population. The biggest issue they have is getting voter turnout. Voters to…it's not compulsory over there as it is here. Very few people vote and the actual vote to elect the President is often in that low 20 mark or below that 17 or 18 per cent.
AUSTIN:
Which I guess is why it is such a knuckle event, knock down drag out sort of fight in American elections.
RIPOLL:
Absolutely, yeah.
BUCHHOLZ:
The spin works but, you mean, the spin works. Like if you apply the logic here in Australia we've got, say 30 per cent buldge on to one side, 30 per cent buldged on the other side and the target audience that the campaign gear is focussed at is that 30 per cent swinging in the middle and they're the blokes that, they're the punters that ultimately control the direction of the nation. On both sides of politics we've both got spin doctors and, you know, both sides are hard at work at the moment trying to find a competitive edge in a hung parliament.
RIPOLL:
Again that 30 per cent though is 30 per cent of a smaller number, it's not 30 per cent of a whole population. It's just 30 per cent of a very small voting public.
BUCHHOLZ:
The voting demographic, yeah.
RIPOLL:
What I absolutely love about the Australian democracy is that we do have compulsory voting. People do get engaged, we love to have a whinge. People have…it's their day to have a whinge on election day. It's their opportunity to make government, change government, to really, you know, drive what is so strong and so good about our democracy. You know we certainly have different views but I think in the end we end up with a better system and we end up with a better class of government here.
AUSTIN:
I must admit it is the one element of being sort of, what's the word, totalitarian or loss of freedom that I think is worth actually keeping and that's requiring people to vote. When you look at …The best argument for it is the American argument, you know…
BUCHHOLZ:
When you see the poverty in the street and a class distinction and a group of people that are left behind economically there because they're not represented. We are so lucky here in Australia and I support (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
If you're going to live in a democracy I think you should say, Ok I am going to vote.
RIPOLL:
Absolutely, no question.
AUSTIN:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane. I should point out that the hidden persuaders will be looking at some democrat ads and republican ads later on this morning, that's about 10.30 this morning. Let me just ask you about that phrase that they were, they were misusing it slightly, Barak Obama's statement; you can't change Washington from the inside. They were…the context was that he was trying to say; I can do it because I'm an outsider. So they've been a bit misleading really in their use of the term there. Can you change Canberra from the inside gentlemen?
RIPOLL:
I think you can always change everything. Nothing's set in stone. I think that what we do is we change over time and we respond to our environment, we respond to things that are happening around us. At the same time our task is to be a bit creative, is to be a little bit innovative, to look to the future, to you know, to have the courage to set policies and plans for the next 20 years. I believe that's what we've been doing in government. But I'd add to that ad that we just heard that you can't change things, what has he done in four years, I'd just add to that that you can't change things in four years. Things take a lot longer to change and you've often got a machine with very big gears that turn slowly. If you're going to change those wheels and those gears, including public opinion, it takes a long time.
BUCHHOLZ:
Can you change things? You can change stuff if there's a political will and on our side of politics there's a political will for change. We'll rescind the carbon tax, that won't take four years, we'll do that in our first sitting. We'll present legislation to the house if elected because we believe that this election will be a referendum on the carbon tax, that the punters may have been misled at the last election with reference to the Government's position on it. We'll try and…we'll probably more than likely bring that to the forefront of…
RIPOLL:
Scott, in all fairness to you in terms of you'll rescind that in your first session, I would just say to you that, look I accept what you're saying, but it's just not possible. This is a deep change to our economic system, our tax system, a whole range, a whole heap of companies big and small have now factored in, not just factored in but built in to their business models and systems a whole new way which is in sync and in line with what the rest of the world is doing and you may have a desire and move some words to that effect but that ain't gonna happen out there in the community and it's the equivalent of saying to people now, we're just going to in our next session of Parliament just unwind the GST overnight and it's all done. Not possible.
AUSTIN:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane. My guests; Bernie Ripoll, the last voice you heard was Bernie, Federal Labor Member for Oxley and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer. My guest on the other side is Steve Buchholz, Steve is the Federal LNP Member for Wright, his electorate incudes areas in the Lockyer Valley, Scenic Rim, Mt Tamborine, Logan, Weston and Mudgeeraba. He's filling in for Steve Ciobo. Gentlemen, let me go first of all to the Prime Minister, then I'll go to the Opposition leader. Why are we looking at selling uranium to India, Bernie Ripoll, when they are not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty? Something we've held high for many years.
RIPOLL:
Simply because India is a very good friend of Australia. We've got currently 22 framework agreements with other countries – not all signatories – and if we can sell uranium to China, to the US, to other parts of the world and we can have those agreements in place I think that is more than appropriate and acceptable for one of the largest democracies in the world, a Commonwealth country, very similar to ours in many respects and one we have a close relationship with. If we can have those frameworks and agreements in place then why shouldn't we?
AUSTIN:
There is real tension between India which is predominately Hindu and Pakistan which is predominately Islamic. They've both got the bomb and they both sabre-rattle very vigorously, particularly over Kashmir. Would we have blood on our hands as the Greens seem to be indicating if they use a nuclear weapon made from Australian uranium?
RIPOLL:
Well, let's pray that never happens, but the simple answer is no. No because the uranium we would be providing would be for power generation and as you already say, they've already got the bomb, so it's not as if we are proliferating that or making that now possible. Simply we have a resource that happens to be uranium, they need good quality uranium to drive their power stations and it's something we ought to do and trade with and we can trust the Indian Government and Parliament – very similar to ours, a democracy. They do the right thing, we've got agreements in place, we can have the IAEA look at…
AUSTIN:
It's the International Atomic Energy Agency, yep.
RIPOLL:
Yes. To actually look at these frameworks to make sure they do, and they do work. And that's the bottom line, they do work. India is a great friend of Australia and I don't think that we could any longer maintain a policy position which said we couldn't sell it. We changed it at the last National ALP Conference and now we're changing it at a Commonwealth level.
AUSTIN:
Scott Buchholz, what's the LNP's position? You'd sell it to whoever wants it?
BUCHHOLZ:
Mate, I think we've got the Prime Minister in India at the moment and I think we gave one of the citizens an Order of Australia the other day – a cricketer.
AUSTIN:
I'll come to that in just a moment.
BUCHHOLZ:
We'd sell our parents if we could at the moment to try and get the deficit back under control with reference to the budget.
AUSTIN:
Is that an official statement from the LNP Scott? Parents up for sale?
RIPOLL:
Maybe your parents, I'm not selling mine.
BUCHHOLZ:
No mate, I don't particularly, from an LNP position, I'm not 100 per cent sure but with reference to India having access to Australian uranium. The whole nuclear debate here in Australia has years still to go on it. There are an amount of emerging countries that use nuclear power as a base load generator because they don't have access to coal or for whatever reasons they have. As soon as everyone says uranium they always go to the, you know, press the hand off the red button type of thing.
AUSTIN:
I'm more worried about the waste that comes at the other end personally.
BUCHHOLZ:
Yeah, we're not…are we taking that back?
AUSTIN:
That remains to be seen. It's building up and there was a plan for places like Mount Isa to drop large amounts of it down some of its deep old shafts, but that's another story.
BUCHHOLZ:
We need to watch that space mate…
AUSTIN:
It's 23 minutes past nine. My guests; from the LNP Scott Buchholz, Federal Member Wright. For the ALP Bernie Ripoll, Federal Member for Oxley. Just, how do both of you feel about Sachin Tendulkar being given an Order of Australia medal. There was a lot of not entirely overwhelmingly positive response by the listeners yesterday to our news room. How do you guys feel about this? Can a non-Australian get the Order of Australia?
BUCHHOLZ:
I think it cheapens the integrity of the award recipients that have received it to date. Now I didn't have the opportunity to listen to your program yesterday, but I mean if I got an Order of Australia and I mean I'd think one of the prerequisites of receiving that is an Australian. What would be the Prime Minister's motivation or the overarching committee that's handed them out…
AUSTIN:
So you don't' think Sachin Tendulkar should get an Order of Australia medal Scott Buchholz?
BUCHHOLZ:
No I don't. I think it should be, that honour or that privilege should be bestowed upon someone who holds the card of being an Australian as a primary source of getting the award.
AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll.
RIPOLL:
Scotty, with due respect, I mean, this is not new or unusual. It's not new for Australia, it's not new for any other country. Countries often recognise other people who have made a major contribution to their country and that's how you recognise them and in fact if you look historically there have been a number of foreigners, non-Australians who've been given Orders of Australia medals or other awards from Australia in due recognition of the work that they have done for our country. They love this country and (inaudible).
BUCHHOLZ:
Like who?
RIPOLL:
Well there's a whole heap of them and in cricket in particular and Howard, I don't think we'd be having this conversation if… there's been heaps mate, there's been heaps and I'll give you a whole…
AUSTIN:
Do you know who?
RIPOLL:
I've got a list. Let me get out my iPad and let's just go through a whole list. But I don't think that's the point. The point is that in fact once upon a time in Australia the only awards that went out, disgracefully were to non-Australians. If you have a look a World War 1, awards and medals, World War 2 where the English would award them to the English commanders for Australian troops and Australians had to fight to get recognition later, so I think it's a bit rich to just pick on one guy.
BUCHHOLZ:
Yeah, but surely someone giving their life…
AUSTIN:
What is the reason why we are giving an Order of Australia medal to Sachin Tendulkar?
RIPOLL:
Well, for the reasons we've just stated. For the service that other people provide in terms of the relationship…
AUSTIN:
What's he done, what's Sachin Tendulkar done for Australia?
RIPOLL:
Well, improve the relationship between India and Australia and do it through cricket and his services to Australia. And look, we can go down this narrow cast type view that we just, yeah ok, we don't give any awards to any other countries but…
BUCHHOLZ:
No but 67 not out is hardly an accolade that should be…
RIPOLL:
Let's not cheapen it to that respect. Let's not cheapen it to that respect. There are Australians who have received awards, national awards of similar quality and merit from other countries because they've done great service to those countries and I think that's appropriate that countries share some of those awards and again I say, if this was the first one or new or different…
AUSTIN:
So this is sort of the generosity of spirit of Australians?
RIPOLL:
Well why shouldn't we? Why shouldn't we be generous? Why shouldn't we, as Australians, you know, I mean how far do you want to put up the picket fence? How far do you want to put up the iron curtain? If this was the first, maybe we ought to have a debate, but this is in the long list of many others that have happened before.
BUCHHOLZ:
Yeah, I don't agree.
RIPOLL:
That's fine. If it was the first I would say you have a point, but you'd have to take it away from the ones that Howard gave. You'd have to take it away from the ones that previous Liberal Governments gave.
AUSTIN:
27 past nine. This is 612 ABC Brisbane. Scott Buchholz, Tony Abbott, the Leader of the Opposition goes to Indonesia and doesn't talk about the plan to tow asylum seeker boats away from Australia and back to Indonesia. Why not?
BUCHHOLZ:
Mate just because Tony…
AUSTIN:
He's no man of steel obviously.
BUCHHOLZ:
Well, no, no. Well look there are protocols in place when you're travelling to another country and just because Tony hasn't taken it up with, you know, SYB doesn't mean that the conversation at detail isn't going to be held with Scotty Morrison and his counterpart over there, with Julie Bishop with their counterpart. When you travel on these delegations, I mean there is an assumption that these blokes because we see them in the media a lot, taking the handshake. They may only spend a period of, you know, an hour with each other and there's a lot of ground to cover obviously with the relationship with the live cattle trade export up there that went south last year but the relationships with Indonesia and Australia I don't suggest are at all-time highs. So there is a lot of ground that we've got to recover in trying to rebuild those relationships. I would be interested to see what Scotty Morrison's comments will rely or negotiations with his counterpart up there.
AUSTIN:
So Scott Morrison, the Opposition's immigration spokesperson will be holding those discussions?
BUCHHOLZ:
Well mate, I'd be very surprised if they're not. I'd be very surprised.
AUSTIN:
It was very surprising to most people that Tony Abbott didn't, given that Indonesia apparently doesn't like the policy. And you know what Julia Gillard's comment was? The Labor party's comment was that he talks big over here but he is a mouse over there.
BUCHHOLZ:
Well mate, that's Labor's position and I mean, so what? We've got a lot of ground to recover and like I said the relationship with Indonesia is not at an all-time high. We need to go back and remember, we cut off their major source of protein, or food source not too many months ago.
AUSTIN:
This is the live cattle trade?
BUCHHOLZ:
Live cattle export, mate. And when you say to a country we're going to stop feeding you that has some ramifications.
RIPOLL:
Let me just step in at that point if I can.
AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll.
RIPOLL:
We haven't stopped feeding Indonesia by any measure.
BUCHHOLZ:
No, we cut off their major source of protein.
RIPOLL:
And we didn't cut off their major source of protein either (inaudible).
AUSTIN:
But we did suspend, we did stop the trade.
RIPOLL:
Well yeah, there's a difference between that and saying we've cut off their food supply literally.
BUCHHOLZ:
No, their major source of protein, three times.
RIPOLL:
Yeah, that's fine.
AUSTIN:
Keep going Bernie Ripoll.
RIPOLL:
It wasn't their major source either. There's plenty other sources
AUSTIN:
Ok, a source.
RIPOLL:
And they didn't starve in that intervening period. But I think it's important that we get those frameworks right when there are significant problems that Australians and government and I do as well as everybody else object to the way that things were happening, so we did that. Look, whether the man of steel is a mouse or not is a separate issue but you would think on what happens to be a top priority issue for the LNP here at least in Australia this is their key policy plank, in terms of asylum seekers is that we are going to tow boats back. The reality is the Navy have said they can't, won't and it's too dangerous and Indonesia said well you're not going to either because you can't tow them back to us. You'd think that at least they could sort out over there when you get an opportunity to meet with the significant person who might make a decision. But again, those matters are a matter for the record. Now if the leader of the LNP, the leader of the Liberal party Tony Abbott doesn't raise it I'm sure Scott Morrison won't either.
AUSTIN:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane. My guests are Scott Buchholz and Bernie Ripoll. Chaps, can I just ask you quickly about unemployment. We've done a few stories on this recently. We know what the official unemployment rate is but do we, we've also been talking about Roy Morgan research who say, look there's a real problem here. That while it's an agreed definition, the underemployment rate is a better indicator of people's felt or lived experience and it's nearly double the unemployment rate and they, Morgan's research thinks that's what's feeding into some of the problems in the country at the moment. Do we measure unemployment the right way? Are you happy about that? The underemployment is far greater, almost double the unemployment problem.
RIPOLL:
Sure. Well look, you can measure it in a whole heap of different ways. I think consistency is the (inaudible).
AUSTIN:
Sure, but people's lived experience is what really matters.
RIPOLL:
Absolutely. Look, agreed completely. But you need some consistency year-to-year so you can actually have a number that tells you something. If you change the rules every year, well, the previous year's numbers are meaningless and so forth. So what has changed though in recent times, look we've seen a slight increase in unemployment the headline rate is about 5.4 nationally. Comparatively anywhere in the world you would say that's fantastic. But of course then if your lived experience is not that then I agree with you Steve, I think that is bad. Interestingly in Queensland though it has gone up 6.1 to 6.3 per cent and very interestingly since Campbell Newman came to government there's been 130 (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
Keep going Bernie and then I'll come to Mr Buchholz.
RIPOLL:
130 jobs a week are being lost, sorry, a day are being lost. Since the carbon tax came in, 200 jobs have been gained in that same period. So 200 versus 130 just in Queensland.
AUSTIN:
They're being lost in the construction industry in Queensland.
RIPOLL:
I'm talking about gains. I'm talking about gains. This is how many jobs we've actually gained. 200 jobs compared to the 130.
AUSTIN:
Because of the carbon tax.
RIPOLL:
No, just since. No, since, very clearly. Since the Carbon tax came in July 1, the economy has put on those amount of new jobs. The interesting part that changes now is the participation rate and we've been trying to get more and more people to participate which means that you will get a higher unemployment figure as more people are looking for work cause they'll be counted in the equation. But I think that's a good thing because you need to encourage people to get involved, to participate and to look for work.
AUSTIN:
Scott Buchholz, do you want to respond?
BUCHHOLZ:
Yeah, picking up on your opening comment on there on Morgans. I think there is room for us to explore further and both sides of government have been guilty of this but I think there is room for us to explore a more accurate way of capturing unemployment.
AUSTIN:
Is there a big underemployment in your electorate? You've got one of those electorates that potentially should have a higher unemployment level than most, partly because of your geographic position.
BUCHHOLZ:
Yeah we do, cause we're on the outskirts of the metropolitan area and by default of our geographical location we have very little or no links into the resources sector so we don't have that high disposable income coming back into the community stimulating our retail and commerce sector. By default we've got an agricultural precinct, so we import a lot of labour in our peak periods in the way of picking and that that we just can't get from our local communities in that peak time when volumes are up and we need that demand. But with reference to the Queensland stats when you come in to the North tourism is really taking a hammering and there's a number of factors that are playing out in that, predominately the Australian dollar. Punters are taking the opportunity to flee overseas and have an international experience other than staying here in Queensland. We've got the softening of the resources sector here in Queensland, you know, both sides of Government have identified that. You know, Ferguson made the point that we've come off the boom, we've got two major employment factors…
AUSTIN:
And this is the big driver of it.
BUCHHOLZ:
Well, I would suggest logically looking at it that with tourism and the coming off the resources as having a kick along in the increase in our employment factor, I think it's a long bow to draw to say since Campbell Newman's come to town. That, you know, the whole sky is falling in and…
AUSTIN:
Look, I have to wrap it up time wise. Bernie Ripoll, I do need to ask you, why are you wearing lycra?
RIPOLL:
Well today I am supporting the 1200ks for Kids. It's in support of the Humpty Dumpty foundation and kids in hospital. Great bunch of guys that are riding Sydney to Brisbane, I'm obviously not doing that. Today I'm just going to support them in one small leg of that and just help a bunch of really good people trying to raise money and help out kids in hospital and any opportunity I get, I know plenty of other people do the same thing, you know, just try and get in and do your community bit, do your bit as well.
AUSTIN:
I know my producers were particularly excited to hear you were coming in lycra, so there you go. Scott?
BUCHHOLZ:
Mate, I've got just on 2000 motor home enthusiasts down in Boonah at the moment in my showgrounds having a wow of a time. Come from all around Australia, they're having their annual rally so if you see…
AUSTIN:
What, is it a grey nomad rally is it?
BUCHHOLZ:
Yeah mate. Yeah they're having a ball. They had the Beatles down there last night.
RIPOLL:
Not the original Beatles I'm assuming.
BUCHHOLZ:
Of course they did.
AUSTIN:
Scott, thank you very much. Appreciate you coming, thank you. And Bernie Ripoll, thank you to you as well.
BUCHHOLZ:
Thank you.
RIPOLL:
Thanks Steve and thanks Scott.