SUBJECTS: Energy White Paper
A podcast and mp3 download of this interview is available on the ABC website.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll, the Energy White Paper. Martin Ferguson's baby. Martin loves the mining industry. He loves the energy industry. What was in it that's relevant to Queenslanders?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well, I think what's in it that's relevant to Queenslanders and to all Australians is that for the first time we've got a roadmap. A roadmap for energy in Australia. I think there's been a case building and you've had it on your show every week. I can hear the conversations around people starting to understand why prices rise on energy. Why there's problems in certain areas. Why there's the gold plated you know four days of the year that you have to spend $11 billion to cater for those four days. So this will now provide a roadmap. This will give us the best possible direction in terms of deregulation but with the knowledge with deregulation you can only do that where you have a truly competitive market where actually drives prices down. That's the point of this White Paper and it's to make sure that we can actually get those parts right. You have to work with the States and Territories. We are doing that through COAG and we're making sure that you can start to put pressure downwards on energy prices. We cannot sustain what's been happening in this country for the past 30 years on energy and we can't sustain what's been happening on energy in this country for the past five or six years where we have seen up to 70 per cent price rises unchecked. So we need to have a proper debate. This is the beginning point, this is the roadmap and this will lead to better outcomes. We will actually know why we are paying the prices we are paying and I think also I think reflective pricing. Reflective pricing so the consumers can make a choice. We ought to be able to choose when we turn things on and off and there are certainly things that we can't choose but we ought to know when the best times are and how we can minimise our bills at home as well.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Does the paper recommend that Queensland privatise or consider privatising its generating assets and its power and cable assets? Like pole and cable assets?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Absolutely, yeah absolutely Steven. The paper recommends there be a continuation of privatisation and deregulation right across the sector.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Something the State Government has said they will not do unless they take it to an election.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Sure, that's fine. Good on them. Look, what needs to happen in this country is if we're going to drive innovation we are going drive competition. These are things that are well understood. You have to do it in a proper manner. Deregulation of itself does not solve a problem. I'm not for deregulation just for the sake of it. I think you can only do that where you've got proper checks on competition. Healthy competition in a deregulated market works. We've seen where it doesn't work so we've got that experience so let's get that right. What we're saying is if we're going to innovate and we're going to provide the smart meters and we're going to provide the sort of competition you need so that it's not all locked up by an oligopoly then you need to go down this path. For the first time though – and this is the good part about this paper – it gives us something to work from. We've had a haphazard approach an ad-hoc approach to energy. We can no longer sustain that in the future so we're taking action.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo.
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, Steve look I wanted to get through the program and be really positive with Bernie but I've gotta say Steve…
BERNIE RIPOLL:
It's up to you Steve.
STEVE CIOBO:
… after just listening to that. The guy's a salesman and one of the best and there's no doubt about it but unfortunately the facts just don't accord with that. The simple fact is this, that this White Paper is three years overdue. The Government should have released this White Paper on their timetable three years ago when Labor was still in power in New South Wales and Queensland for example. Now they are no longer in power so they've suddenly released this White Paper and then we have Bernie saying: "oh well look, we are really concerned about these unchecked price increases across electricity". I mean Steve, for goodness sake. This is a Government that has just introduced the world's biggest carbon tax. This is a tax that is specifically designed to push up the price of power. I mean the reality is every time your power bill increases that's the carbon tax doing its work. That's the Labor Party happy that they're getting an outcome of policy that they've been trying to achieve through the carbon tax.
STEVE AUSTIN:
A year this week I think, isn't it? It's sort of happy anniversary carbon tax.
STEVE CIOBO:
And this is the thing Steve you know. And now we've got Bernie here saying: "oh we are really concerned about these State Governments". I mean for goodness sake. If they're half serious about doing something for electricity prices, for not only Queenslanders, but across Australia then for goodness sake don't introduce the world's biggest carbon tax when you promise that you wouldn't.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Look, firstly can I say I didn't say I was concerned about State Governments. I think this is an all in roadmap. This is a roadmap about everybody. The Commonwealth, the States and the Territories. But it's also about consumers and it's also about… We can argue about it all day but there is one thing the carbon tax has done. Now the new carbon pricing system means for the first time Queenslanders and Australians actually have some sense of where they're pricing goes on electricity and what they've realised is that yes the carbon price has added a small amount. It's significant for some but it's still small. But where is the rest of the 50 per cent and 60 per cent and 70 per cent rises come from? We don't hear too much about that from the Opposition. We actually need to tackle this whole issue on a bigger perspective and start to drive and particularly and I'll keep pointing to this, for four days of peak power a year there's $11 billion spent on infrastructure. That's not good enough. We need to start measuring down how we use our air conditioners, how we use certain appliances in the home and already we've seen a marked decrease in consumption in electricity right across the country, right across households…
STEVE CIOBO:
Because it's so expensive, that's why Bernie.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Because people, including myself at my home and we've decided to do this quite a while ago is that we're going to actually do the right thing. We're going to do the right thing by ourselves first.
STEVE CIOBO:
What, you're going to give away your air conditioner?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well, I don't have any air conditioning at my house. I'll tell you what I have Steve. I have a ducted air which is like a fan system. It costs almost nothing to run. It's basically an evaporative type system. It's not as good as refrigerated air conditioning but I'll tell you what. It's a whole lot better on my power bills which has barely a marked effect on my power bills and it still keeps the house reasonably cool except for those four days a year.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, do you have an air conditioner still or have you gone green?
STEVE CIOBO:
Mate, I don't have an air conditioner because the home I live in is about 50 years of age. The point Steve as well, this notion from the Labor Party that you know, we should be doing the right thing to use Bernie's words and implying that you know we are all such environmental vandals because we dare to use electricity and we think that electricity is expensive. In terms of relativities, if you look at the price of energy in Australia versus other countries in comparable western democracies, Australian energy isn't super cheap. Australian energy from memory is about mid-range. So the notion that in some way we should be feeling guilty as a society because we want to use electricity and we want to use power is just farcical (inaudible)
STEVE AUSTIN:
Jump in Bernie Ripoll.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Sure, look, I didn't say any of that. What I said I was doing the right thing by myself and my family and doing … (inaudible)
STEVE AUSTIN:
Point taken.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Point taken and the rest of it I mean look. We can argue about this. In the end what happened is there's been a change of culture in this country and it is about looking at where we spend our money and how we do it. Look, I am happy that people have got air conditioners. That is not the issue here. The issue is we are going to do better. If we are going to innovate and if we are going to move beyond the 19th century and get into the 21st century we need to start doing things like smart meters, like having proper innovation and competition. Let's start having biogas industries, let's start having wind generation industries – more of them and let's start having more solar power which this Government has done. So there are a lot of things that we can do but it drives change. It drives change and innovation and that's what we need.
STEVE CIOBO:
(Inaudible)
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, it does seem like Australians are changing their power usage or their power habits radically.
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, they're changing Steve and this is the point I can only reinforce. The reason there's been a change is because people are price sensitive. Households are struggling with the cost of living. This Government is making the cost of living so much worse and then they are patting themselves on the back and going "oh well look, people are concerned about changing to different forms of clean energy". I mean the reality is Steve that this is exactly what the carbon price does. It makes electricity more expensive which means that when you get to other types of other electricity generation like wind, like solar which are at the moment very expensive ways to produce electricity, the carbon tax levels the playing field by making the traditional forms of electricity generation much more expensive. So all of a sudden when you look at the traditional forms of electricity generation you say oh well actually, maybe I will get solar, maybe I will get wind because they are now relatively the same price. But the point is though Steve that this is all done on the back of slugging households more money for their electricity. Now if you take the view, why are we doing all of this when our international competitors aren't why are we making Australian cost of living so much more expensive when other countries around the world aren't. Given that we are such a small contributor to global greenhouse gases. This is about the pursuit of a belief by the Labor Party which just means that we all pay more.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Per capita we're a high contributor to greenhouse gases, aren't we?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
We're the highest in the world.
STEVE CIOBO:
Yes, but it's a completely fake measure because that measure doesn't actually mean anything because we are big extractors of whole range of different (Inaudible).
STEVE AUSTIN:
I'm mindful I have to go to news headlines in just a moment. Bernie Ripoll, a brief response and I will go to Shelley Lloyd for a break from this.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Just to acknowledge the cost of living issues and yes cost of living issues are right and yes it has driven the price of electricity up. We acknowledge that and in fact we did something about it for the first time we actually compensated people and we did it through a specific compensation package to those people who needed it the most right through the range up to very high incomes, including School Bonus and a whole range of things to actually deal with cost of living issues. So we've come at it from both ends and I think we've actually done a good job and it is actually reshaping the way we do things including the energy market.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, you've been placed on a Productivity Committee. I think the Coalition Productivity Priorities Working Group. Exactly, what's it doing and what will you be doing?
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, Tony invited me to be Chairman of the Coalition's Productivity Priorities Working Group. What does that actually mean? Well, what that means Steve is that we've been tasked with the job of looking what an Abbott Government – if we are elected at the next Federal election and we obviously hope that we will be – will do in the first 100 days, first three months, six months, twelve months of an Abbott Government to reduce red-tape and to boost Australia's productivity. So it's not about you know 2020 summits and big talk fests which are very popular with the Labor Party. It's about the practical implementable ideas that we will introduce from day one to get Australia more productive and to start generating wealth again.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Thanks very much Steve Ciobo. Bernie Ripoll closing comments? Farewell remarks?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Absolutely, this morning I had a fantastic meeting with Wagners. An Australian company based out of Toowoomba. They do a whole range of things but particularly, they make concrete and if you know concrete is one of the highest emitters of CO2, of carbon. In fact there's about nine tonnes of carbon per average house slab. So it's a lot, it's actually significant. There's no real way of dealing with that. You still gotta build and you still gotta build the concrete. Well, Wagners, an Australian innovation, have developed a new form of concrete which is actually stronger, slightly lighter, slightly different colour, zero carbon emissions because they use a completely different chemical and binding process which uses waste products like slag from furnaces particularly from the iron industry and these guys are about to go big on this and this could be a game changer in terms of carbon emissions in Australia. But the one point they made in the long great meeting we had this morning that they wouldn't have gone down this path if it wasn't for a carbon pricing system which led them to innovate. Because everyone has to look for new solutions and this will be a big ticket item for Australia. It's great for innovation, it's great for Wagner's. They employ about 1000 people and they're going to employ a lot more people in the future.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll, thank you. Steve Ciobo, thank you very much.
STEVE CIOBO:
Thanks Steve.