SUBJECTS: South China Sea territorial disputes, human trafficking, Kevin Rudd and Malcolm Turnbull, and leadership
A podcast and mp3 download of this interview is available on the ABC website.
STEVE AUSTIN:
My guests are Bernie Ripoll. Bernie is the Federal Labor Member for Oxley. Bernie good morning to you.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
G'Day Steve. How are you?
AUSTIN:
And Federal Liberal Member for Moncrieff is Steve Ciobo. Good morning to you Steve Ciobo.
STEVE CIOBO:
Good morning Steve.
AUSTIN:
You guys fly a lot. Have you ever been on an aircraft where you saw the cabin crew rushing to the cabin saying 'the pilot's fallen asleep'?
(inaudible)
RIPOLL:
I hope not.
AUSTIN:
What can I say. Gentlemen, let me ask you first of all, Julia Gillard's been in Asia talking with some of the major players about keeping a lid on some of the little disputes there. Bernie can you tell me, what's in this for Australia? We're particularly worried about some of those territorial disputes around what used to be called the Spratly Islands, but I think they've got a different name now. But there's lots of little rocky outcrops which are apparently sitting on a lot of resources.
RIPOLL:
Well, look our interest, the Australian interest in this is we often have trade routes through there, Australia shipping, or shipping coming to Australia. So, it's important for us. The planet is reasonably small and in terms of shipping and trade and so it's really important for us to make sure that you've got safe passage. These are old issues if you really want to look at them historically. But I think you have to keep updating what responses you have and how you deal these things. So I think the idea of trying to negotiate some sort of code of conduct through trade passages I think is a good idea. Particularly where we are seeing now just, let's call minor skirmishes, in particular areas over small territorial disputes.
AUSTIN:
I believe that minor skirmishes where the Chinese simply sailed a boat in to Vietnamese territory and said 'we're claiming this' and the Vietnamese said 'no, you're not.'
RIPOLL:
That's right and I think that is the case and in fact there's been a number of campaign's here in Australia likely about that particular issue. But obviously, look, these are territorial matters for those particular two countries. Where is does impact on us though, I think we do have a say, particularly when it comes to trade routes.
AUSTIN:
Do you know is a stoush between the Chinese and the Vietnamese, I'd back the Vietnamese. They've already beaten the Chinese off. They've beaten off the Chinese, the French and the Americans with us. I'd back the Vietnamese.
RIPOLL:
I'm not sure I'm going to comment on that. I might leave that one to Steve.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo. What's the Coalition… sorry, I'm being a bit mischievous…What's the Coalition's… I mean, obviously we want to ensure a peaceful regional area and Julia Gillard moved to get a code of conduct is a positive move, but how does the Coalition see it?
CIOBO:
Well, look I'd welcome of course any endeavours in that respect. I mean, I think Steve, that ultimately we recognise that the best way to help alleviate poverty, the best way to grow Australia's wealth and the best way to assist the entire region is to facilitate trade. Of course, I'm of the view that this is to be applauded. When it comes to the actual Government's track record though, I think that there's a big gulf between delivery and announcement, but, you know, look maybe 4th, 5th, 6th time lucky. Who knows?
AUSTIN:
Watching the photographs and the pictures coming out of the ASEAN meeting, Bernie Ripoll, the body language between Julia Gillard and Barack Obama is quite warm, are they good friends? Or have they become good friends?
RIPOLL:
Well, I'd like to think they are. Well, I'd like to think they are on the basis that Australia and America are good friends and that we do have a rapport, we do have an understanding. We're vastly different people, there's no question about that but we are good friends, long-time friends, we've supported each other, we're allies and we trade. America still is Australia's number 1 most important trading partner on a whole range of fronts with China as our largest economic trading partner just recently. So, I think that warmth that's exuded there, I think is just a display of the warmth between our two countries.
AUSTIN:
They certainly had, just a close sort of body language. You know often world leaders seem quite stiff, but they didn't. They seem work quite well, seem to relate, just looking from the pictures.
RIPOLL:
Well, Julia Gillard as Prime Minister is actually quite a warm person and she actually does, when you see her in meetings and when you see her with groups of people, I just did Community Cabinet last week in Redcliffe with Yvette D'ath and there was a real genuine warmth in that meeting with the community and I think that's being displayed, now being seen, on a wider scale.
AUSTIN:
Australia has pledged $50 million to help stop human trafficking. Exactly what for? What's happening and what are we putting money in to?
RIPOLL:
Well, that will be policing efforts, that will be assisting other agencies in countries where that trafficking originates from. To make sure that we play our role. I think this is one of the things that we really need to comprehend more. If you want to stop drugs or firearms, or people trafficking to Australia you've got to go to the sources of that trafficking and work with those local agencies, they've got the local knowledge and you've really got to assist them as much as possible. The more we help them, the more we help ourselves. That's certainly the case with Indonesia and with other jurisdictions in our region where we help fund some of their policing efforts to help protect our shores.
AUSTIN:
Is this the trafficking of women in the sex trade or is it something else?
RIPOLL:
Look, we had a particular focus, we are particularly trying to reduce that trade in particular and also an emphasis on young women and children in the Asia-Pacific region and really working with governments there to try and make a really big difference and it's been a hallmark of Julia Gillard's to really push some of this and that's been having some great traction and Australia of course has, now, a Commissioner for Women and Children and making some really big efforts in the region to really assist other jurisdictions in trying to help them to end what is a vile trade in people.
AUSTIN:
What's the Coalition's policy on stopping human trafficking, Steve Ciobo?
CIOBO:
Obviously we are supportive of efforts to stop human trafficking Steve. There's not any difference in terms of our commitment on either side of the political aisle towards what is, as Bernie said, a vile trade. So, I mean, I agree with the sentiment of what he said. The point I'd make though, the job of an Opposition is to hold the Government to account Steve. The point I'd make about holding this government to account is because of the way in which they've managed the budget, because of the debt and deficit that we've had under this government, we have seen very significant cuts to frontline services from the Australian Federal Police and from Customs. Now, Bernie can talk about the impact of that in terms of human trafficking, he can talk about wanting to do something, but the reality is that when it comes to, for example, the role and function that immigration plays, when it comes to assessing visas, all of them have been stretched now. We've got Department of Immigration staff unable to keep up with the sheer workload as a consequence of the explosion in numbers of asylum seekers, which means that means that there's less scrutiny that's paid to visa applications from people who are actually being trafficked in to Australia as part of the sex trade. Likewise we saw recently in Sydney where there were over, I think from memory, don't quote me on this figure, but 100 plus firearms that have been illegally imported in to the country. We're starting to see on a whole range of levels, porous gaps that exist because this Government's frontline services are being hacked and I don't mean in a computer sense, I mean having the funding hacked out of them and so now the Federal Police, Immigration, Customs, can't do their jobs effectively. So whilst these kinds of announcements are good for the Prime Minister and she likes to walk around and Bernie and come here and sing its praises, the reality is that this has actually declined under this Government.
AUSTIN:
Do you want to respond Bernie Ripoll?
RIPOLL:
Well, just simply to say that our Customs forces, our Federal Police and our security, let's say, is well and truly intact and well-delivered and meets all of its obligations. There's no one from those agencies coming out and saying we're being overrun or anything like that. The reality is not quite as it's being made out.
CIOBO:
Well Bernie, if that's the case can you explain to me why your government just closed the Australian Federal Police Office on the Gold Coast. That was a Coalition initiative. The Gold Coast is home to some of the most significant organised crime gangs and yet your government is now closed the Australian Federal Police headquarters on the Gold Coast because of funding cuts. So how can you sit there and say 'oh no, Steve's overstating it' when on the ground in Australia's sixth largest city, a city that has got a very poor reputation when it comes to law and order, your government's ripping services out of it.
RIPOLL:
Well, look law and order is important and obviously on the Gold Coast, I think you're right, you represent that area, you would know that better than I would. The reality is we are still funding all of those agencies and from time to time there will be changes as to how it's delivered and where it's delivered and whether there's particular office.
CIOBO:
Spin mate.
(inaudible)
AUSTIN:
Can I ask a question? I was unaware that the station had been closed.
CIOBO:
It came out in the last budget estimates period and a number of questions were asked by the…
AUSTIN:
So some time ago, sorry I missed that. Ok. Sorry, Bernie Ripoll?
RIPOLL:
Look, I was going to say it might be ok for Steve to say 'spin', but the reality is, you're right, it was a Coalition Government who delivered it and delivered it in Steve's electorate and that's a great thing for the Gold Coast, maybe there should be one in every electorate. Maybe there should be one in every coastal town up and down the coast where crime is a problem. The reality is you still have to meet budgets, you still have to make economic choices and the reality is we're meeting all of those challenges. (inaudible) There's not a diminution of services provided by, whether it's the AFP, whether it's our Customs services and anyone who would travelled through Customs would realise that technology changes mean we can deliver more services faster in a better way.
AUSTIN:
Has the budget for the Federal Police been cut as Steve Ciobo says?
RIPOLL:
Well, I'm not aware that it has been.
CIOBO:
It has been. I can answer that and it has been and likewise you cannot have an influx of over 20,000 asylum seeker come into a country (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
That's a separate issue.
CIOBO:
No, it's not. (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
From year to year, the number of people that seek asylum are based on and dependant on what the circumstances are in their home countries. But that's the reality.
CIOBO:
You're still denying reality Bernie. (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
Keep going Bernie Ripoll.
RIPOLL:
The reality is, right now, the world is in a very volatile place and we're seeing problems right throughout the Middle East. This will create more push factors which mean that people will seek asylum elsewhere. So when something happens in Syria, when something happens in the Middle East, when something happens somewhere in the world, the push factors are, the reality is we've been sending people back where they have no claim. The reality is we still meet our international obligations and a Coalition government would do no different. In the end, we've excised now all of Australian territory, not just what Howard did, we've gone one step further. We've taken a very hard line on this because we're meeting what is now international pressure head on and that's what we're doing, we're doing practical thing. There still is a problem, but we're going to deal with it.
AUSTIN:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane, it's 23 minutes past nine. My guests are two Federal Parliamentarians. Bernie Ripoll is the Federal Labor Member for Oxley, Steve Ciobo is the Federal Liberal Member for Moncrieff. News headlines in about 7 to 8 minutes from now. Can I ask you about the reappearance of Kevin Rudd on Q&A and Malcolm Turnbull. Two people that clearly have talents. Polls would indicate they're popular with the electorate in a broad sense. Many would argue that there's not much difference between them in a range of areas. The question has arisen about A) why we can't get the politicians we like, and B) whether or not they're good for us anyhow. I had an historian argue to me some time ago that Australias most populist Prime Ministers or leaders have been the worst for the country. The ones who are sort of unpopular, and thinking of Paul Keating and others, actually did the most reforms and laid the best groundwork for adjusting Australia. Give me your personal view on sort of populist leaders and populist leadership first of all. Steve, let's go with you first.
CIOBO:
Well, I am often fond of quoting a saying Steve, there they go and I should follow for I am their leader and I think you may have heard (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
Everyone wants to be popular of course, but populism is often dangerous isn't it.
CIOBO:
Of course it is.
AUSTIN:
It's pandering to the crowd, the mob.
CIOBO:
Look, I'm a bit of a subscriber to Edmund Burke who made the claim that as a Member of Parliament, your obligation is to exercise your judgement before it is to follow the flock. I think that part of the privilege of being a Member of Parliament is that you have to balance the responsibility you have to representing your electorate, with your judgement. You get politicians that try to be all things to all people. I'm sure Bernie and I know a few people that fall in to that category.
AUSTIN:
Do you both care to name them?
RIPOLL:
You can start.
CIOBO:
I'll name the ones of Labor's side.
RIPOLL:
Ok and I'll name the ones of the Liberal side and I think we'll have a very long list.
CIOBO:
We'll have to swap lists Bernie.
RIPOLL:
That's right.
CIOBO:
But the point I was making is that it's always a fine balance. But, you know, I'm not convinced Steve that somebody's at the start a populist or an un-populist and that therefore there's policy benefits or policy demerits. The point is that if someone's making hard decisions, if they think of the right thing well then they may be unpopular.
AUSTIN:
A leader often has to tell a nation what they don't want to hear, don't they? A leader often has to tell a nation 'now, look, I'm sorry you might want this, but it can't be done for this reason – I'm worried about the future or what have you.' (inaudible)
CIOBO:
I think that's absolutely the case.
RIPOLL:
Look Steve, I take the view and this is something that we do think about on a regular basis is that great leadership and popularity are completely unrelated. They are not the same thing, they're not even, for me, not even on the same planet. They can coexist of course. You can have a great leader who is also popular or you can have someone who is popular and can be a great leader. But they are not the same thing. Justin Beiber is very popular, but I wouldn't him running the country and we've had some great leaders in time you are tyrants. They still were a great leader, they still led people.
CIOBO:
Who are you talking about Bernie? Who are you alluding to?
RIPOLL:
Again, we could exchange lists.
AUSTIN:
No one cares to mention any names.
RIPOLL:
I think the real question here is it should not be a popularity contest, but the reality of life is you at least need to be popular enough or have enough support, popularity is really support, have enough support first and there is enough belief in your views and where you're taking a country in this case, that you can have that sort of backing that gets you to where you need to be. But I just, one caveat is this; none of us in Parliament, none of us have a right to be a Prime Minister or a right to be anything at all. It's something that it is a privilege and handed to you on the basis that you do certain things.
AUSTIN:
And do you think that Kevin Rudd feels that he has that right?
RIPOLL:
Well, others have made plenty of comment and I don't think it would be fair for me to just judge who has those rights. (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
You know him personally, you've been in the Caucus room with him.
RIPOLL:
I certainly have been for many years in fact. We were elected in the same year in 1998. It was a very good year by the way. Labor did very well in that year.
AUSTIN:
Keep going.
RIPOLL:
But none of us should feel as though that is our cup. Our winning and that's something that we deserve and is ours. It is a great privilege to ever have served in this country, just in Parliament. Let alone to be a Minister or to be a leader. Leadership is about bringing people with you. Everyone thinks that they're a great leader. Not everyone wants to be Prime Minister by the way. I can put my hand up now and say I am out of that race. (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
It's a scoop, Bernie Ripoll's not in the running for the Prime Ministership (inaudible). Steve Ciobo, let me ask you about someone like Malcolm Turnbull who is seen as your party's Kevin Rudd in many ways. He apparently has a high opinion of himself and certainly rates well in the popularity polls, but your party has not seen fit to elevate him to a higher level. Although I think there was an announcement recently.
CIOBO:
Well, mate, I'm not sure if I would agree with all of your assertions there Steve. I mean, there are some significant differences between Malcolm and Kevin, I'm not even referring to policy. I mean the reality is that Malcolm is one of the most senior Shadow Cabinet Ministers. Malcolm is someone who will be in Shadow Cabinet and be one of the most senior members of the Coalition. So, right there I'd say when you claim he is not elevated, well, I mean he is elevated. He is one of the most senior Shadow Cabinet Ministers that there is.
AUSTIN:
How long has it taken? It's been a while.
CIOBO:
Since the reshuffle he's had that position. So, that's why I'm saying I'm not sure I would agree with your assertion. Look, I think ultimately the difference between the Labor Party and the Liberal Party comes down to this. The Labor Party is the political arm of the trade union movement. The Liberal Party does not as its base any one particular group. (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
You're the political arm of big business aren't you?
CIOBO:
No we're not. This is the whole point. That's a throw away line Steve, but the reality is that it's a broad church.
AUSTIN:
I'm being mischievous.
CIOBO:
I know. But I think it's important and it's up to Liberals like me to defend the party because we are not about big business. We've got small business people in there, we've got police in there, we've got undertakers in there. There's a real cross section of Australia and I would put to you we are the only political party that does represent that broad cross-section of people.
RIPOLL:
Well, I'd argue that. I wouldn't argue that's the case, but I would argue that the Labor Party is a very very broad church and hence the great debates that we have. I mean, one of the things that I absolutely love about the Labor movement and the Labor Party is that you can represent working people and you can represent business interests and you can represent trade.
CIOBO:
Bernie, you're 90 per cent Union hacks.
RIPOLL:
And you can represent all of the things, you can represent all of the things that make a really great country. The freedoms of association, the freedoms of speech, and the capacity for people to be able to better themselves and they don't' all have to be of one ilk, they can be right across the board. And anyone who looks at our policies and the things we've actually delivered in the five and a bit years that we've been in government, would actually agree.
CIOBO:
You can say that Bernie.
RIPOLL:
It's the reality.
CIOBO:
But you can't escape the reality that 80 per cent of your party is comprised of former trade union hacks.
RIPOLL:
And 80 per cent of your party are just lawyers, I mean, so what?
CIOBO:
That's not true.
RIPOLL:
Ok, 75 per cent.
CIOBO:
That's not even close, but see this is the thing mate, this is the big difference. It is a statement of fact, you can go through the biographies, 80 per cent of yours are former trade union employees and hacks. (inaudible) It is not the case that even a majority of ours are former lawyers.
RIPOLL:
Lawyers and big business people, so there you go.
AUSTIN:
This is 612. I want to ask you another question on popularity and leaders in just a moment. I'll take news headlines first.
RIPOLL:
Of course, by the way, I love lawyers and big business people.
AUSTIN:
Really?
RIPOLL:
Yeah, I do, they're all fine people.
AUSTIN:
I read ages ago, Bob Hawkes biography and then read Paul Kelly's book 'The March of the Patriots'. What stood out to me of those books was the fact that Bob Hawke seemed to be quite a good Chairman. He had quite strong personalities in his Cabinet as a Labor Prime Minister, people like Peter Walsh who apparently really hard man, and wouldn't allow, sort of, finance to get out of control, that he was able to sort of balance the competing egos. Let these hard guys do their jobs and bring about certain results. He was incredibly popular, but it was actually many of his Cabinet that made some of the harder decisions. Something that Paul Keating pointed out later in life. Paul Keating's personal popularity rating was never high, but he did a lot of quite reforming things as a Prime Minister. So, for each of you inside, who, is it better to be in a party with a populist or popular leader, or is it not better. Take us inside. I just actually want to go inside Canberra. I'm not talking about Kevin Rudd or Malcolm Turnbull. But is it better to be in a party where the leader doesn't care about their popularity so much rather than achieving the betterment of the nation.
CIOBO:
Well, the point I'd make Steve, and this would be consistent, I think it would be fair to say with both party rooms, whether it's the Coalition or the Labor Party. So, in terms of getting inside the head of a Federal Member of Parliament. The balance is always between those in marginal seats who want to make sure that they continue to have the privilege of representing those seats after the next election who are perhaps more focussed on policies that they believe are saleable and supportable in the electorate, versus others in the party room who might be more focussed on what is in their view good policy which may not always be popular. That's the fundamental conflict that exists across all political parties and has been the case from the very beginning of representative politics.
AUSTIN:
It's always hard cutting back programs isn't it? Always hard cutting back spending, no matter which side of politics you're on. Because someone's going to lose.
CIOBO:
That's right. No one goes out there… take for example our situation now. We've now got debts that's run up to $145 billion, we've got another $120 billion of unfunded liabilities this Government's committed to. Right there's an example of where the Government's out making big statements because they're popular. So NDIS, Government's out there committing to this scheme. We support it as well, but the difference is that the Government said 'we're going to introduce NDIS' and they've got to find $8 billion to fund that scheme, likewise Gonski reforms. All these things are very popular and contemporary Steve, but there's just no money for it and so this is a case ofwhere you have a trade-off between what's popular and what's the right thing to do because there simply is not the money to fund it.
AUSTIN:
I don't want to get in to a policy debate Bernie. I'll let you add to that, but is it better working in a party structure working for a leader who's worried about their popularity?
RIPOLL:
Just a quick flip of that coin in terms of NDIS and Gonski. More than anything else, they're absolutely necessary. That's the bottom line. They're absolutely necessary. We have to find a way to do these things. If it takes eight years to introduce them, then it'll take eight years. But you've got to start somewhere. That's the premise and you'll never get these things done if a government never commits to them because there's always an excuse and always something to be put off for tomorrow. In the heyday, you know the rivers of gold flowing in to Canberra, there was always an excuse why you couldn't do these things. Let's just get them done, let's just get started. Look, in terms of the party room, it's a question of first amongst equals. In the party room we're all equal. There are a few people who are slightly ahead of us, let's just put it that way. I think as all Members of Parliament, what we appreciate in our own groups, in our own party room is that we do have a voice, we do have a capacity to be able to say 'no' to certain things, to be able to debate things, to be able to drive an agenda which we collectively agree on. There has to be you know, collectivism in that circumstance where we are trying to get good outcomes, but more important for me is in my mind, what legacy am I going to leave behind, in twenty years, not two, not the next election. It may not be popular, but what am I going to look back on when I'm a little bit older and in twenty years' time and be able to actually say 'look, we did some really good things'. There's a risk to that.
AUSTIN:
I have to wind up. I need to ask you one quick question each, I need a quick answer. First of all, Bernie, does Julia Gillard care whether she's popular or not?
RIPOLL:
That's a tough one. I'd say, popularity no. It's not a popularity question. She's actually doing a very tough job and she's doing a good job of it. Introducing a carbon pricing system in this country wasn't popular, but she did it.
AUSTIN:
Does Tony Abbott care whether he is personally popular or not, Steve Ciobo?
CIOBO:
Well, I think that you'd find that Tony's position reflects what he believes to be good policy and not to be what he believes is popular.
AUSTIN:
Thanks for coming in gentlemen.
RIPOLL:
Thanks Steve.
CIOBO:
Thank you Steve.