SUBJECTS: Queensland State politics, AWU and UN vote on Palestine
A podcast and mp3 download of this interview is available on the ABC website.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll is the Federal member for Oxley and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer. Bernie, good morning to you.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Good morning Steve.
AUSTIN:
And Steve Ciobo is the Federal LNP member for Moncrieff. Steve Ciobo, good morning to you.
STEVE CIOBO:
Good morning to you Steve.
AUSTIN:
I know gentlemen that you've been focussed on the weighty matters of national politics and Federal Government, but can I ask you, Steve Ciobo, first of all, the ongoing, unbelievable fracturing of the LNP Government, here in Queensland, is this having a negative or detrimental effect on the LNP nationally?
CIOBO:
Well Steve, first thing I'd do is pull you up. I think you're hyperventilating a bit, there's a few people…
AUSTIN:
Yes, I'm out of breath Steve. I'm out of breath.
CIOBO:
Getting a bit excited about what's going on in Queensland. I mean, let's just deal with the facts, in the cold light of day away from the sensationalism of, you know, some of the media and some of the detractors. The reality is that we have Campbell Newman and his team who were elected with a very strong showing of support. They are holding the faith with the people of Queensland who put them there. They have made strong decisions already to get Queensland's economy back on track. Let's not lose sight of the fact that only yesterday, Moody's downgraded Queensland and that is despite the savage cuts that the Campbell Government, Campbell Newman's Government has had to introduce to try and get Queensland back on track. So despite those savage cuts, can you imagine how badly Queensland would be faring if this Government hadn't taken the strong decisions that they took. Now as a consequence of those strong decisions…
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, can I ask you, with all that's gone on here in Queensland…
CIOBO:
Sure.
AUSTIN:
With all that's taken place. The internal fracturing, people leaving the party, Cabinet Ministers stepping down (inaudible) for not much at all, and now an Ethics Committee Chair says the Premier has misled Parliament. Queensland is likely to be, once again, the pivotal state at the Federal Election next year and that is going to have some sort of blow back effect on your, the LNP's, chances of winning Government Federally.
CIOBO:
I really don't think it is Steve, I honestly don't think there's any. The reason why I don't think it is is because at the end of the day we're talking about one disaffected backbencher, we're talking about Dr Alex Douglas who, you know, has gone out with his views for whatever the reason that is. But, I put that in a comparative analysis as to where're the Queensland people are going to be looking at the choice between an Abbott Government or a Gillard Government and I can say to you, unequivocally Steve, that I very firmly believe that the people of Queensland will entirely separate the Queensland Government's small issues from the much bigger issue which is that we have a Federal Labor Government that is completely out of control when it comes to spending and to tax and when it comes to the smear that is being left behind as a result of the AWU accusations and the alternative of an Abbott Government. And so, I don't believe that this is going to be a big factor at all.
AUSTIN:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane and Steve Ciobo. Bernie Ripoll, do you want to give any observation? I need to give you a chance to comment as well if you'd like. For reasons of balance Bernie.
RIPOLL:
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think I'd just simply say, 'welcome to the real world of a Liberal National Party Government in power and when they get power, boy do they know how to use it.' Steve Ciobo talked about savage cuts, I agree with him. They were savage. They were savage mostly around just people losing their jobs, job cuts. This is not what the people of Queensland voted for. This is not what the people of Queensland expect and if this is any taste of things to come in the future, then we're all in trouble.
AUSTIN:
On the matter of the Gold Coast, Steve Ciobo, and the cruise ship terminal that is being planned by the new State Government. Alex Gaven, one of those, another member of the LNP who's upset with what's going on here in Queensland, from your side of politics. He's spoken out against the cruise ship terminal. As a Federal Member for the area, what's your position on the cruise ship terminal on the Gold Coast? Do you support it or are you against it?
CIOBO:
I've always said that I believe that a cruise ship terminal that can be introduced in an environmentally sustainable way is a positive thing for the Gold Coast. That is actually inside my electorate, although obviously the Federal Government has no direct jurisdiction in this Council and State Government. But, Steve, the Gold Coast has been really weathering a storm when it comes to tourism. You know, we've had big increases in tourism taxes. Tourism numbers are down, so we have to do something to revive the Coast's tourism interest because ultimately it is the single biggest industry on the Gold Coast. It's really been struggling. So I certainly support it, provided obviously, that it's environmentally sustainable.
AUSTIN:
Thank you very much for that. Let me move on, and I'm very keen, I want to make sure that I ask questions that listeners want asked. So, let me ask you both gentlemen. I don't mind who answers this. Graham of Sandstone Point has sent me an email saying, to ask you to explain the meaning of the term 'questions without notice'. He goes on to ask 'how is it that during Question Time in Federal Parliament the Prime Minister and her ministers are usually armed with copious notes whenever a question is asked by the opposition. I can understand when they are expecting a Dorothy dixer from one of their own, does questions with notices really mean what it says' asks Graham of Sandstone Point. Bernie Ripoll, you're in the Government, I'll come to you first.
RIPOLL:
Sure. Yeah, look, it does mean what it says. It is without notice. If you put a question with notice, it's in writing, you actually ask a question formally and a full response is given in writing and so forth. A question without notice basically just means during question time you're asking a question. Ministers have available to them a whole range of information that they can refer to, but they don't know what questions are coming up. They might certainly know some questions. There's an expectation, you get a sense of what might be on the agenda, but given the line of questioning in the last few days, few weeks, few months , there's no mystery as to what question will be asked every single day. It's the same question over and over and it's going nowhere. In Parliament there's an opportunity, there's always opportunities for the Opposition to hold the Government to account on a range of things, but it just seems to be one question which goes absolutely nowhere.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo.
CIOBO:
Steve, I absolutely agree with Bernie. It's going absolutely nowhere and the reason it's going absolutely nowhere is because we've got a Prime Minister who's adopted a very deliberate strategy with this whole AWU accusation and that is this: The Prime Minister has done a number of press conferences now where the Prime Minister will stand there and answer the media in some way shape or form, and I'll leave it to others to judge the merit of the answers she provides through the Canberra Press Gallery, but that notwithstanding, then comes in to Parliament, comes in to Question Time and this is exactly the time where as an Opposition we're to hold the Government to account and we believe that the Prime Minister's conduct as a lawyer, the circumstances surrounding her exit from Slater and Gordon, the circumstances involving the misappropriation of hundreds of thousands of dollars of workers money from the AWU are questions that deserve to be answered. But instead of answering them in question time, the Prime Minister says 'oh well, I refer you to the comments I made at the Press Conference' and the reason the Prime Minister does that Steve, is because there are consequences to misleading the Parliament with statements you give on the floor of the Parliament. But if you simply refer to answers you gave in a press conference, then there is no ability to enforce in any way, shape or form accusations of misleading the Parliament and that is the deliberate strategy employed by this Prime Minister who frankly is too slippery for her own good when it comes to these very serious accusations.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, is that really what Australians want asked? There seems to be a disconnect between the population of Australia and Parliamentarians at the moment as shown up in the latest polls. I think News Limited had a good summary recently when they said, look, Labor's making ground in Queensland but Gillard and Tony Abbott don't understand the issues that Australians want asked. Of all the things the nation is facing, of all the global issues we're facing, of all of the financial issues that Australia is facing, why are you spending so much time on something that happened 19, 20 years ago that may or may not have involved the Prime Minister?
CIOBO:
Well, it certainly did involve the Prime Minister, there's no doubt about that. I mean there's no doubt the Prime Minister was involved. What we're trying to determine is the extent to which and the reason we're asking this Steve isn't because we put everything else to one side, we continue to prosecute and examine opportunities in terms of public policy debate on a whole range of issues from educational reforms to national disability insurance scheme and, most importantly, to the absolutely looming and, once again, massive budget deficit this Labor Government's going to introduce. But that notwithstanding, we believe that the character of the Prime Minister is absolutely essential to people's judgement when it comes to the leader of this nation (inaudible).
AUSTIN:
So this is about character from the LNP's point of view?
CIOBO:
Absolutely.
AUSTIN:
The character of the Prime Minister, not the truth of what actually happened?
CIOBO:
Well, it's one in the same, you can't separate those two things. The reality is Steve, that you can't have a Prime Minister who's been involved, potentially, allegedly, in conduct that is potentially criminal and at the same time (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
It's a big call. Mr Ciobo, it's a very big call. We're yet to see any allegation put forward and they won't because there are none, because there is nothing, because for twenty years the Prime Minister has answered all the questions on this matter and continues to do so in a completely full and open environment, subjected herself to one of the lengthiest press conferences, not of the Canberra press gallery, but all of the media, did so again before question time, for an hour on Monday and continues to answer questions every single day and has answered all the questions, and if there were an allegation, if there were something, if there was just the smallest of something , the Opposition would finally pounce on it. The reality is they're just scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's all muck, it's all smear and there's just nothing there. It's a character assassination, is what's actually going on. I actually agree with you Steve, that the Australian people have had a gutful of it and they're actually wanting other questions, they're actually wanting the Government maybe to be held to account on other things, or maybe that we move on and certainly that's the feeling I get when I go and talk to people in the street and at forums, they do not ask me about these things.
AUSTIN:
Well, let me ask you Bernie Ripoll then about one issue which is quite current and that is Australia will be abstaining from the United Nations vote to give greater recognition to a Palestinian state. We were told that in Caucus there was some concern about Julia Gillard planning to vote against this. Can you give me the Federal Government's position please Bernie Ripoll?
RIPOLL:
Sure. Well, let's just get it clear. We're not voting for or against, we're abstaining. The decision of the Cabinet and the Caucus and the Government is to abstain from the vote. It's not to accord some sort of statehood, it will accord a non-member observer state status. There's one thing that we have maintained over a very long period of time and goes across both political parties, and that's our support and view that the best way to resolve this conflict is through direct negotiation between Israeli's and Palestinians; to make sure that they can come to a peaceful arrangement about a two-state solution. The only enduring piece that we will see in the region is through the parties sitting down and negotiating. UN resolutions in this area would do very little. This one will, again, do very little. Australia's position is we will abstain from the vote. We will not cast one way or the other and that's been our decision on this. We maintain a very strong support for the people of Israel and we maintain a very strong position for the view that Palestinians should have self-determination, should be able to live in peace, as everyone should in that region. And the best way forward, the best way to achieve this, is going to have to be through negotiation, and that's what we maintain and continue to support.
AUSTIN:
Why did we fight so hard to get a position on the Security Council only to abstain when the crunch comes, when the vote comes?
RIPOLL:
Well, we fought very hard to be on the UN Security Council because it's important for Australia to be there. Abstaining is a position and it sends a very clear signal in terms of on some of the complexities around negotiations and the best way forward. We have a very strong view in terms of what should happen at the UN and the UN resolutions. This will not be the way forward. We're yet to see whether this resolution will be put or not put, but what we've made clear is that our position is to abstain from that vote and send our message through in that way. We believe the best way forward is through negotiations. If we're ever going to get real about a lasting peace, it has to be negotiated, it' can't be decreed.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, you have a different view on this?
CIOBO:
Well, I agree to some extent, in terms of being a position, but the problem is it's the wrong position. Steve, the reason it's the wrong position is because for many, many years, there's been a bipartisan approach adopted by both sides of the political aisle, to support Israel, recognising it is one of the only true democracies in the Middle East and recognising that they have a right to exist when there are many surrounding neighbours who take the view that Israel has no right to exist and are doing that they can to drive Israel in to the ground. Part of the concern that we've got of course is what's occurred here Steve. We've had the Prime Minister who attempted to adopt a position that was consistent with the past decision made by successive Australian Governments, consistent with an adherence to that bipartisan position. And a Prime Minister who was rolled and so, rather than actually doing what was the right policy thing to do, this Prime Minister chose an outcome that obviously was about saving her backside rather than actually doing the right thing by Australia and by Israel. That's the concern here. We have good policy being jettisoned for short term political opportunism and bear in mind, there aren't my words in the sense that I say it's her own survival, this came from a frontbencher on Labor's side who said that the Prime Minister came the closest she has ever come to losing her leadership over this issue.
AUSTIN:
Do you want to respond to that Bernie Ripoll?
RIPOLL:
Well, I certainly agree with Steve on the fact that there is a bipartisan position that's been long-held in this country (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
No, on the issue that the Prime Minister come the closest she's ever some to losing her leadership of the Party on this issue.
RIPOLL:
Well, I don't believe that's the case at all. In fact, far from it. I think the Prime Minister has demonstrated in the past two years…
CIOBO:
It was you're frontbencher Bernie, your frontbencher that said it.
RIPOLL:
Well, look, there might be an individual that has that view, it's certainly no my view and I can tell that's certainly not the view of everyone I speak to. The Prime Minister is in a very strong position within the Party, within the Caucus. The Prime Minister has demonstrated over the past two years, her capacity to deal with a whole range of complex issues, including a minority government position, a hung Parliament and deliver; deliver on policy, deliver on some of the toughest decisions any Government's been faced with. Including delivering a carbon pricing system, Murray Darling Basin – first time in 100 years that a Government's actually fixed the issue and got it through Parliament. So, to say that she's come the closest, it's just not correct, it's just not accurate, it's not reflective of the Caucus view. One person might have that view. That doesn't mean that's what the rest of the Caucus believe.
AUSTIN:
Why on this issue? Given all the things that you've just listed for me Bernie Ripoll, it does seem unusual that the State of Israel and the Palestinian people on the other side of planet Earth would A) occupy so much time of Caucus here on the other side of the planet, but B) to have one frontbencher to say it's threatened Julia Gillard's leadership of the party. What is it about that place that does this to our Prime Minister?
RIPOLL:
Well, I'm not sure it does it to our Prime Minister, I think what it does for Australia…
AUSTIN:
Or her leadership?
RIPOLL:
Well, I don't think it does it for her leadership either. I think the key point…
CIOBO:
Certainly didn't do it for her leadership Bernie (inaudible).
RIPOLL:
Well, I think the key point here is…The question you're asking is why is the Middle East, Israel, and why is Israel so important, because it is really important. It is, as Steve said, it is the only democracy in that part of the world and it's a very important place and we ought to be supporting democracies everywhere in the world. We ought to be assisting others to get to that same place. We ought to be assisting a whole range of people. We make an enormous contribution financially to Palestinian people as well as to Israel, but certainly we make a very large contribution in terms of trying to assist Palestinians to have a better life and opportunity at Statehood at some time in the future. We want to see those negotiations succeed. Peace in the Middle East is very important for our national security. Peace in the world is important for our national security. This is our best interests. We do these things, like getting a seat on the UN Security Council so that we can have a peaceful world so that we can be prosperous where we are. It goes back to some really core and basic principles; we might live on an island, but we certainly ain't one.
AUSTIN:
Can you clarify for me then Bernie Ripoll, is it true, there was some talk that Bob Carr threatened to resign if Australia voted no. Is that true?
RIPOLL:
Well, I don't know and I'd say that no, it's not the case, but I don't know, I'll just be honest with you. (inaudible) Well, I'm giving you my view, if I can't express an opinion there's something wrong. I actually said to you, I don't know, but I think it's not true because knowing Bob Carr, that would not be the case. Now, other people may have different views and I accept that, but I've just been very genuine and frank with you, by saying I don't know.
AUSTIN:
Alright, I have to go. Gentlemen, thank you very much. Although Steve Ciobo, look I'm sorry, I know there was one other thing we wanted to put to you about a policy announcement by your side of politics today. I'm sorry I've (inaudible).
CIOBO:
That's ok. People will see it on the news.
AUSTIN:
Thank you very much. Steve Ciobo, Federal Liberal Member for Moncrieff based on the Gold Coast. Bernie Ripoll, Federal Labor Member for Oxley on the South West side of Brisbane here.