SUBJECT: Labor-Greens agreement, Minerals Resource Rents Tax, Australian Workers' Union and Labor and Liberal Party leadership
STEVE AUSTIN:
Let's go Inside Canberra. Bernie Ripoll is the Federal Labor Member for Oxley and Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer. Bernie, welcome back.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Hi Steve, g'day Scott.
AUSTIN:
Let me just try and press the right button. I got the wrong button. Sorry about that. Say that again Bernie, my apologies.
RIPOLL:
G'day Steve, hi Scott. How are you going?
SCOTT BUCHHOLZ:
Good morning.
AUSTIN:
Scott Buchholz is the Federal Liberal Member for Wright taking in the Lockyer Valley, Scenic Rim, Mount Tamborine, Logan West and Mudgeeraba areas filling in for Steve Ciobo this morning. Scott, thanks for coming in.
BUCHHOLZ
Top of the morning mate.
AUSTIN:
Are you keeping a track at all what's happening in Logan at the moment?
BUCHHOLZ
Yeah, once I've finished here this morning I'll toddle over to that summit. There's a session there this morning which we'll participate in. Looking forward to the opportunity to spending a bit more time in Logan.
AUSTIN:
Well, let's go to matters more related to Federal politics. Bernie Ripoll, the Leader of the Greens, Christine Milnes announced yesterday that it was all over. Your marriage is ended, it's divorced but they're still providing you supply and confidence in the House. So that's like a live in separation really?
RIPOLL:
You could put it in those terms I suppose but I think the important thing is to say that we did have an agreement with the Australian Greens. We no longer have an agreement with them because we don't agree on a range of issues in particular when it comes to jobs. Labor is focussed on jobs. We want to make sure that in a range of areas that's what we want to do. So where we had disagreements, the Greens have decided they no longer want to have that alliance. That's fine, they've done the right thing in terms of the Parliament and Government as well but to guarantee supply which I think is the right thing to do.
AUSTIN:
Remember at the time they actually signed for the camera a document. There was some sort of document that Bob Brown and Julia Gillard signed for the cameras and it's been replayed numerous times.
RIPOLL:
Yeah.
AUSTIN:
Was that document actually a real document that actually have, you know, these are the terms of our agreement?
RIPOLL:
Yeah, absolutely. There was a formal agreement and that agreement has ended. No one would expect that those agreements go on into perpetuity. There comes a time when we have diverged from what our focus is. We are clearly focussed on jobs. I'll say it and I'll say it many times again. We are clearly focussed towards keeping the economy strong, we want to focus on jobs, we want to do the right thing by families and if that means that the Greens no longer support that agenda that the Government is doing, that the Labor Party is doing then so be it. You know, they'll continue doing what they're doing and we'll continue to govern.
AUSTIN:
Scott Buchholz?
BUCHHOLZ
Mate, with reference to the Greens walking away from their agreement yesterday, I don't think that you will see in a macro perspective a lot change. You are still going to see the Greens supporting Labor in the lower house. You are still going to see the Greens supporting Labor with their preferences in the next election. I think you've summarised it pretty adequately in your opening remarks there. It's an adequate separation but we still live under the same house. With the amount of issues the Greens could have raised yesterday with reference to the national issue, it just shows what a void they have. The best news article they could get out was that we're going to walk away from our agreement with the Labor Party but behind that, not a lot is going to change.
AUSTIN:
They accused you of being in the pocket of the big miners Bernie. Is the Labor Party in the pocket of the big miners?
RIPOLL:
Absolutely not. I think anybody who looks at it, we are regularly criticised by the big miners and by a range of people particularly in the mining industry. I think we are doing the right thing and that's why we are being criticised. Tough decisions sometimes mean that people don't agree with you. We are continuing to go down that path. The Mining Resource Rents Tax is the most efficient way to raise revenue back to the people who own those resources.
BUCHHOLZ
Are you serious Bernie? (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
Absolutely. I mean, look, fair enough, I am prepared to take a giggle on it as long as you give me an opportunity to explain why.
AUSTIN:
Sorry.
RIPOLL:
No, I can understand why it might sound a bit funny right now. The thing is, as a tax system it's efficient and just because right now it's not raising the sort of revenue we would have hoped, that doesn't mean that in 20 years it won't or that in a decade it won't. It's a long-term projection. You work through these sort of things as a complete system. These sort of things aren't determined by what happens in one month, six months or even 12 months. It is more efficient because it does tax super profits, which means that the real owners of the resources which are the Australian people, the tax payers, will get more return over time.
AUSTIN:
Scott, before you, just bring your microphone a bit closer if you wouldn't mind please. So that I don't lose your voice. What do you think of that? The MRRT is a long-term tax. In other words it mightn't have got what they needed now, but down the track sometime it will.
BUCHHOLZ
Mate, the whole fundamental of the mining tax is flawed from the word go. Here are Rio Tinto, BHP, Xstrata who negotiate billions and billions of dollars' worth of contracts and deals on a daily basis with very tough competitors. Some of them being communist nations that we trade with. When it comes time to put this deals together, Julia Gillard said I'll handle this one personally because I believe I've got the skillset to get the outcome and just to give me a little bit more support, I'm taking another gun in with me. I'm taking Swannie in with me. We knew that the fundamentals of this MRRT was fundamentally flawed when the mining companies walked out of that first round of negotiations and said, yep, we believe we've made a compromise. Not only did it fail to raise the expectations of money but the Government now is in the tin to the tune of $1.7 billion in tax credits. One of the fundamentals of why these guys have been able to get the upper hand is that they're able to value all their assets at current valuation.
AUSTIN:
Current market prices.
BUCHHOLZ
Current market price. In the top of a 150 year high of terms of trade or 140 year terms of trade, the value of those assets were extraordinary. So the write down capacity that they have is contributable to why they didn't get the super profits that they did this year because they either get their write-offs from the other side of the ledger.
AUSTIN:
Is that right Bernie? They got tax credits out of this?
RIPOLL:
Yeah, they did. Scott's right too. Our terms of trade are at a high, some 140 year high because the Australian economy is resilient, it's strong and because the Government is doing the right thing by the economy and by workers. On top of that, you've got to understand that the miners have paid their ordinary tax plus on top of that they've paid more tax, more with a plus sign, through the MRRT. Not as much as we would have hoped and liked but they still paid more. So it still worked, it just wasn't what was projected. That is a disappointment, obviously. I would have liked it to have been much, much more but if we're just going to argue over whether they paid more or a little bit less, the reality is they still paid extra.
AUSTIN:
Scott, can I ask you… (inaudible)
BUCHHOLZ
Just on that, it's a long boat to draw that the terms of trade at 150 year highs are a result of the fiscal settings of this Labor Government. Most economists would draw the conclusion that the terms of trade are at their all-time high as a result of our trading partners demand for our product. It has little or nothing to do with our fiscal settings, which Labor continuously takes credit for. The reality is, we've got China who want our black rocks on this side of the country and they want our orange rocks on the other side of the country.
AUSTIN:
Can I ask you, doesn't it undermine the Liberal National Party argument that if the tax is so bad that undermines the argument that the Labor Party is in the pocket of the mining interests as the Greens have said. It seems to contradict that. This would indicate that they are not in the pocket of the miners.
BUCHHOLZ
Mate, when we are talking about pockets, the only thing that Australians can be absolutely guaranteed of is that none of that mining tax is going to hit the pockets of Australians. In fact, one of the fundamental flaws which I suspect that Labor and the Green alliance walked away from, is that you've Labor who had these forecasted revenues that were going to come in from the mining tax that they've already gone and spent. They've already gone and committed that money. It's already gone out the door. Instead of being in an economic environment of fiscal responsibility saying, alright, our revenues are down on the mining tax, our revenue is down now on the proposed surplus that we've walked away. As a result, we should be pulling back in our expenditure. But no, this Government is going completely the 180 degree direction the other way in saying we are going to look at funding the Gonski Reforms, the National Disability, dental reforms along with myriads of others. Some fiscal responsibility if you are true to your word. You need to start to tighten up some of our expenditure and start living within our means.
AUSTIN:
One more and then I'll change the topic.
RIPOLL:
I've responded on this particular matter many times, but we are living within our means. Australia has one of the best fiscal disciplines in the world.
BUCHHOLZ
Four biggest surpluses in history.
RIPOLL:
Debt, very very low. Interest rates very very low – could be lower always, but they're very very low. But the reality, if the only argument here from the Liberal Opposition is to get rid of school funding through Gonski or the National Disability Scheme or hit people through the hip pocket through dental programs that we are setting up. If that's their only way that they can see that they want to bolster their coffers in Treasury, I'd say that's the wrong way. If you are going to spend money, spend it in the right areas. Spend it on schools and education, spend it on health, spend it in the right areas.
AUSTIN:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane. Bernie Ripoll is the Federal Labor Member for Oxley. Scott Buchholz is the Federal Liberal Member for Wright. My name is Steve Austin. Have I done something wrong?
RIPOLL:
No, we are happy to chat away. We are looking at you for a lead Steve. Otherwise we are happy to talk.
AUSTIN:
Then I am going to ask about the Australian Workers Union Conference on the Gold Coast. Bernie, first of all, just explain how powerful the AWU is within the Labor Party.
RIPOLL:
Well the Australian Workers Union is a large organisation. In fact they're Australia's number one union as in the largest union. They represent the most workers in Australia. If you're going to call it power…
AUSTIN:
They don't let their figures be publicly audited though, do they?
RIPOLL:
Actually, I'm not sure about that.
AUSTIN:
(inaudible)
RIPOLL:
I'm not sure, sorry. In terms of power, if we say power, what is power, people have different perceptions of what that power is. I'd say they have no more power, influence than any other union. We sit down and talk to not only individual unions in this country, as everybody should because they represent millions of workers. We also sit down and talk to industry, we talk to big business. You get criticised on both sides of the fence if you talk to unions or if you talk to industry. I am happy we're criticised for talking to everybody.
AUSTIN:
Can I ask you, what faction are you in?
RIPOLL:
It's generally referred to as the Right. It's a broad church we like to call it and involves a whole range of people from different areas…
AUSTIN:
Usually described as Centre Unity or something like that isn't it?
RIPOLL:
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Depends on…
AUSTIN:
Which is the AWU essentially.
RIPOLL:
No, it's a big part of it. It's not just the AWU, there's also other unions who are represented in the sense of people affiliate to a point of view if you like. We are pragmatic people, we like to do things that are rational and real and deliver jobs.
AUSTIN:
I'll show you where I am going with this. The top dog of the AWU in Queensland is Bill Ludwig.
RIPOLL:
Yeah, that's right.
AUSTIN:
So, if Bill Ludwig gives Kevin Rudd the nod or doesn't give him the nod, does that determine whether or not Kevin Rudd becomes leader of your Party?
RIPOLL:
I have no idea and completely frankly and I'll explain it to you.
AUSTIN:
He certainly gave him the cross when the leadership changed, didn't it? (inaudible) Bill Ludwig, Paul Howes and a couple of the other unions that basically killed off Kevin Rudd's Prime Ministership. If they changed their mind… (inaudible)
RIPOLL:
Well, I wouldn't agree. People sort of preface all these things with all these things happen. I'd actually tell you that's not reality and that's not history because I was there. There's one great thing about history. If you are standing right in the middle of it you actually know it took place. I was saying to Scott over a cup of coffee this morning, I was saying to him you know, there is a funny old thing that happens with votes and ballots in Caucus – we have it in all parties – is no one has ever rung me to tell me how to vote on anything or even suggested to me that I should vote a particular way. I almost feel offended. Why aren't people calling me and giving me instructions? I am left to my own devices to make up my own mind. I haven't particularly checked with any of my colleagues but it appears that it is the same for them. So if there is this so-called power of influence… I think people romanticise this.
AUSTIN:
Well, Paul Howes went on national television and said there was on the very night of the coup. He went on TV and said this is why we did it.
RIPOLL:
Well, that's his view it's not mine.
BUCHHOLZ
So are you proclaiming that the unions had nothing to do with the leadership coup?
RIPOLL:
No, hang on. You are going down a particular path. You are going down a separate path. The path is somewhat twisted because it's not accurate to start with. Paul Howes did go on television.
BUCHHOLZ
Let me rephrase my question. Did Kevin Rudd become Prime Minister if here in Queensland Bill Ludwig says no.
RIPOLL:
I have no idea. He did become Prime Minister.
AUSTIN:
I am sorry, could he become Prime Minister again if Bill Ludwig is saying no?
RIPOLL:
If anyone in the Caucus has sufficient support in the Caucus regardless of what anyone else says, they will become the Leader and therefore the Prime Minister in this term.
AUSTIN:
So the Caucus would ignore what their factional leaders say?
RIPOLL:
People treat these things as if they are this homogenous thing. One person, one influence. It doesn't work that way. That's just not life. It's not life and it's not reality. I'll tell you the reality of history of what took place. The last time there was a leadership change there was no vote, there was no ballot. One person resigned. It was then open – one person nominated and that person was Julia Gillard and she became Prime Minister. That's fact and reality. That's history.
AUSTIN:
It's a slight, slight twist.
RIPOLL:
There's no twist, that's actually what happened because I was there.
AUSTIN:
Yeah, but they went to Kevin Rudd and said, mate, here's the reality and he chose to not go through the painful path and actually going through the vote. In other words, he could count.
RIPOLL:
There's only one way to really know numbers and that's to actually test them. That's what we say.
AUSTIN:
So are they going to be tested again?
RIPOLL:
Well, I have no idea. Again, I have no idea. No one has asked me to do anything, or say anything, or not say anything, or not do anything. What I will do is what I've always done. I support the Leader, I support the Prime Minister, I support Julia Gillard, I support what we're doing as a Government and if the Caucus or someone in the Caucus wants to use the proper processes to put themselves forward – they are entitled to do that. And then if there is a ballot required then we'll go down that path. But the reality is there isn't one. Everyone is wishing there was because it makes great entertainment. I don't find it entertaining by the way but I am sure others might.
AUSTIN:
Scott Buchholz, let me then turn to you. Malcolm Turnbull.
BUCHHOLZ
Well, can I have a crack at Rudd?
AUSTIN:
No, let me ask you. You've got the same problem. Malcolm Turnbull is the preferred Leader for Australians of the Australian Liberal Party. He's very personally popular, yet he's got no chance apparently. Why not? Why won't the Liberal Party give Australians the Leader they want?
BUCHHOLZ
Well, fundamentally in the Coalition, the support for the Members that elect the Leader is clearly for Tony Abbott. The obvious differences between our party room and the Labor Party room is that Malcolm Turnbull sits in our Cabinet. His opinions are valued. He is part of the decision making team. He sits side by side when the decisions are being made unlike Kevin Rudd who's been banished to the backbenches. With reference to Kevin, he's in a precarious situation at the moment because here on one hand you've got the Prime Minister in the likes of Gillard and the Northern Territory situation captain's pick with Nova Peris. After that you've got the decision to walk away from the surplus. Julia Gillard's involvement in the mining tax debacle where it didn't raise any money, Julia Gillard's decision to elevate Slipper into the Speaker's position, Julia Gillard's decision to reshuffle a Cabinet on the back of two senior members' resignation, Julia Gillard's decision to stand by Craig Thomson and somehow in the midst of all that, Kevin's been disruptive. I mean, I would suggest the majority of problems that the Labor Party have got fall and end and start and the alpha and the omega with the Prime Minister's leadership and judgement.
AUSTIN:
Would the Liberal National Party prefer Kevin Rudd as Prime Minister or would you prefer Julia Gillard as Prime Minister now?
BUCHHOLZ
Mate, I get asked that all the time and really it doesn't make much difference. For me, I'd probably prefer Kevin Rudd. But obviously that decision is not mine.
AUSTIN:
Would you prefer Malcolm Turnbull as Leader of the Liberal National Party?
BUCHHOLZ
No, I am more politically aligned with my ideologies to Tony Abbott. On Christian values, on the opposition of the carbon tax so yeah, my ideologies are more aligned to Tony.
AUSTIN:
Closing comments, parting remarks?
RIPOLL:
There's a fantastic new announcement that we've made which is about innovation in this country. If there's a next place where we can all go, we talk about productivity, we talk about competition but the next big one is innovation. We've made a massive change to the R&D tax system where companies that turn over more than $20 billion a year will no longer receive a R&D tax concession. That money will then go to smaller operators, smaller businesses to help them innovate and encourage growth, jobs creation. There will be 10 innovation hubs set up around the country. These are the sort of positive focused plans we have on creating jobs, wealth, activity and just making sure that people still can pay their mortgages, making sure that we are doing our bit, making sure that we grow our economy and keep it strong which is what we've done. It's a resilient economy because we've worked very hard to make it like that.
AUSTIN:
Scott Buchholz.
BUCHHOLZ
The handling of the national budget and the fiscal management of our nation has been nothing short of appalling. What we can be assured of between now and the election date is increased taxes. A warning to Labor, a warning to the Prime Minister – do not go anywhere near my mum's and dad's and the people of Queensland's superannuation to try and prop up your failed fiscal management.
AUSTIN:
Gentlemen, thanks for coming in.
RIPOLL:
Thanks Steve, thanks Scott.
BUCHHOLZ
Thanks mate.
AUSTIN:
Scott Buchholz is the Federal LNP Member for the seat of Wright. Bernie Ripoll is the Federal Labor Member for the seat of Oxley.