SUBJECTS: Gonski review of school funding, Climate Commission report, Fair Work Australia review, Tony Abbott.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Let's go Inside Canberra now. Federal Parliament is sitting. My two guests or panellists are Bernie Ripoll. Bernie is the Federal Labor Member for Oxley. Bernie, good morning to you.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
G'day Steven, how are you?
STEVE AUSTIN:
Very well. And Steve Ciobo is the Federal LNP Member for Moncrieff. Steve Ciobo, good morning to you.
STEVE CIOBO:
Good morning Steve.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Gentleman, let me start on the Gonski report as we await the final decision Bernie by Government. Why did the Prime Minister Julia Gillard see need to reassure independent schools that they would receive more money this week? Why was there a need to do that?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well I think it's pretty clear Steven that there is a lot of interference out there and there's plenty of people that would want to tear this good policy down and look, from our perspective, we want to make sure that people are confident, parents are confident, that schools are confident and that no school will lose money under this proposal. In fact the big argument is how much more it will cost, because there will be more money for schools. The bottom line in this is quite simple. The Gonski review is about a better funding system. I think we all agree on some of the principles. At least this that the current funding mechanism just no longer works in today's environment and that we need a better system. Gonski has done that. We are yet to give our final position to that, but at its most simple level it is about more funding for kids to make sure that they keep up with the rest of the world. It is just not about keeping up in Australia, but also keep up comparatively with our international schools and make sure our kids are as smart as anywhere in the world.
STEVE AUSTIN:
When will the Federal Government sort of position or state final or new policy decisions come out on this Bernie?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well, it is very close. I think we are just a matter of weeks away before we put our final position forward. But I know this from Peter Garrett as the Minister that he is very passionate about this, as are a lot of MP's. Certainly I am and I do give a Gonski because I think this is the right way forward. It's always going to be difficult, it's always going to be complicated and there is always going to be lots of debate, but I haven't found a parent yet, or a teacher yet, or a school yet, who doesn't want better funding, more money and a better opportunity for their kids.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, can you help explain to me Tony Abbott's position? Yesterday he stated his belief that public schools aren't being short changed under the current model, yet maintained his support for the system that he described as being unjust to private schools. It seems contradictory to me. What's Tony Abbott's position?
STEVE CIOBO:
Sure, now what he was actually outlining Steve was the fact that, and this and indisputable fact, is that children in public schools receive far more public funding than children in private schools and that might sound like a statement of the blinding obvious
STEVE AUSTIN:
Yes.
STEVE CIOBO:
But the reality is though Steve, that the parents who chose to send their children to independent schools. They are not all sort of the prestigious schools, a lot of them are low fee catholic schools for example. Those parents have paid their taxes as well. They have paid their taxes and they are receiving a much smaller percentage of public funding going into those independent schools and the reality is Steve, that if we didn't have children in independent schools, that would place a much more significant burden on the education sector because those students would all be in the public system. So, you know, I think what's important to recognise is, and I was just listening to Bernie's answer before Steve, you know who couldn't agree with what Bernie said? Everybody would say that sounds great. We all want to live in this perfect nirvana where every school receives as much funding as can possibly receive and so on and so forth. But the fundamental problem is this. Gonski represents an additional $5 billion of extra expenditure per annum. It's $26 billion of new expenditure and the problem Steve is that Labor does not have $26 billion to fund this and that's the reason why we are saying to this Government enough of the flowery rhetoric. How are you actually going to deliver this? Because the simple reality is that they cannot deliver this.
STEVE AUSTIN:
I learnt yesterday that in the last decade funding for education in Australia had actually increased by 40 per cent although we were still just a little bit behind the OECD average Bernie. Is it likely that the $5 billion recommended by Gonski will be done by your Government?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well I think we are all in furious agreement. I think that is at least something we can say about this debate. All the points Steve Ciobo has raised about funding and there being inequities, it is a complex system. We all agree and that's why we as a Labor Government set forward a very ambitious program to say let's do this, let's reform the school funding system. Let's get some balance and fairness. Let's make sure that we no longer decide funding on which schools you go to but recognise the fact that all kids deserve equal opportunities and that's what we are doing. Now, if the only question what remains for us 'how do we fund it?', then that's easy. Because if there is agreement across the Parliament, if there is agreement if we want to find a way we will. As a Labor Government we've proved that in very difficult economic times we can maintain a very modest surplus, but it's still a surplus. At the same time continue to fund some really big programs and as you have just said in the last ten years, 40 per cent increase in funding for schools but also in the health area and a range of other reforms. We're committed to this. If we have the right partners and they are the States and Territories and they will work with us and we will find a way and we will fund this.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Can the Government guarantee, Bernie Ripoll, that any increased funding (we've had what 40 per cent over the last ten years and we've had actually many people believe reduced education outcomes, in other words there's real problems with literacy that surprised many people) can you guarantee that the extra money will improve education standards? I know it will lift money, but will it improve standards of education, not just pay for teachers?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Look, I am not particularly keen on giving guarantees on anything, but I think it would be fair to say that if you do increase, lift the standards - and we've already made a range of reforms in education and in the schools sector - if you lift the standards and you provide better career opportunities for teachers and you create a better environment and you better fund particularly in the areas of literacy. We already know the evidence is on the table. Where you put extra funding on the table for those things you get better outcomes. In the end, more money in this area and better teachers will have better outcomes for our kids.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, isn't that part of the problem there is no guarantee that education outcomes, you know, the quality of students education and the quality of the teachers will improve with extra money? There is just no guarantee of that.
STEVE CIOBO:
Well that's right Steven. I mean, historically the former Coalition Government, I'm sure you will recall, put in place some initiatives to try to improve teaching standards and to uncouple remuneration for teachers from it just being a time-served basis to one that's tied back to educational outcomes. But you know Steve, this is frankly in my view a bit of a cruel hoax by Bernie and the Labor Party because Bernie says you know, we have a $1.5 billion surplus and we are committed to making this happen and where there's a will there's a way kind of thing. The problem is Steve, this isn't easy actually. This is $5 billion of additional expenditure per annum that this Government simply cannot find. My biggest problem Steve as a father of two young children is this: Every single time this Government borrows money - and they are borrowing about $110 million a day - every time this Government borrows money, it's our children that have to pay that debt back. So when they sit here and crow about how committed they are to education and how committed they are to finding an extra $26 billion for Gonski because they think that there's a couple of votes in it. The reality is, that it's the Aussie kids that they say that they are looking out for, who are going to be paying that debt back for the next two decades or longer because of this Government's spending binge.
STEVE AUSTIN:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane, it's 14 past nine. My name is Steve Austin and my guests in our Parliament House studios in Canberra, the voice you just heard; Steve Ciobo. Steve is the federal member for Moncrieff for the LNP. Also with him is Bernie Ripoll, Bernie is the Federal Labor member for Oxley. Let me ask you about the Climate Commission Report if I can please Bernie. I am a little bit behind the eight ball because I haven't read the substantial report and I doubt anybody has. From the Government's point of view, what were the key features of the Climate Commission report that was released yesterday?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well firstly Steven, I think we're all even on this score, because I haven't read the report either. So, I will just tell you that upfront.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Released with great fanfare though Bernie.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
It is. But look, I do know a little bit about it even though I haven't read it. I've got some briefing on it. The Climate Commission's done a large report on what's happening internationally on climate change and what they've concluded in that report is that lots of countries, particularly countries like France the UK, Germany, Sweden, Norway, New Zealand, Switzerland and others are all taking action on climate change and that also other countries such as China, Korea, South Africa and well California is not a country but it may as well be, because I think it's the fourth largest economy in the world, are also taking action - some of them in different ways, some of them have emission trading schemes, some of them have got a carbon pricing system similar to ours, or a type of tax mechanism. The thing to point to though is that every major economy in the world is tackling this issue. It's real. Look, even the Opposition agree with this that it's real, because they have the same outcomes and the same decreases in climate change that we are looking for - so the same percentages are on the table. We've just got a different system of getting there.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Everyone has the five per cent target, don't they?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Everybody has the target. Everyone has the five per cent target and we are all working towards that. Ours is now legislated. It's now part of the system. The sky didn't fall down, the world didn't end. Yes there will be price rises and increases. We have acknowledged that from day one and that's why we've put out compensation. There has already been a review since the first of July when it started. And it shows quite clearly that price increases have been modest and in line with where we expected them to be and so the compensation will also work to that extent. But the biggest area being that in electricity price increases, I mean it is fair enough to say that there is an increase in electricity prices due to the carbon price. But it is modest in comparison to the price rises we have seen over the last four or five years which have been anywhere in the range of 40 to 70 per cent in some cases where there was no compensation at all. So I think overall, if we all have the same target we want to see a five per cent reduction we've all got to do something, then it's not good enough to just say it's too hard and we're just not going to act. Because the rest of the world is acting and we'll pay the price long term if we don't act early and now.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, what's the Federal Opposition's response to the Climate Commission's Report?
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, it confirms a couple of things Steve. The first is that yes, the rest of the world is taking action but it's becoming less reliant on international agreement and actually focussed on policies akin to the policy that we have which is the direct action policy. We are seeing initiatives taken by nation states within themselves. They're not sitting back saying we need an international framework on this. The fact is that that aligns perfectly with our direct action plan which will see a reduction in emissions. Don't forget that under Labor's carbon tax we are going to actually see an increase in emissions. It's going from 578 to 621 million tonnes under Labor's carbon tax. You know it's hardly sort of the be all and end all. And I've gotta say Steve, I sort of chuckle a little bit when I hear Bernie say "oh well, you know look, yeah sure the carbon tax has put up electricity prices but hey, they haven't gone up by as much as they did previously because of network charges and those types of things by State Governments." In other words, we know electricity has gone up by a lot and so therefore we want you to forgive us that we are putting them up a little more.
STEVE AUSTIN:
I think the one that surprised me was the effect on butchers. On the price of meat. Of course refrigeration gas as result of the carbon tax has gone through the roof and it's had a flow on effect because refrigerated trucks deliver via you know diesel fuel. The one that seems to be really affected by the carbon tax which I don't think anybody really predicted was the cost of meat. Have you guys had any feedback from your constituents on the cost of going to their local butcher and buying a bit of lamb or beer?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well Steven, I haven't had any specific feedback, but I am sure I will. Right now, what's actually come out of that particularly on the price of a $20 a kilo type high-end cut of meat, it represents about an increase of one cent. So I think it's more than modest and a one cent increase is not something that people may or may not notice. It still may be an increase but it's small. In terms of particular refrigerant gases this was blown all out of proportion. A lot of misrepresentation of data and that has not been proved to be the case with a number of people having been actioned by the ACCC in terms of their miss-claims. Basically just price gouging and just taking people for a ride on this. There are a very few people that are being dishonest about the increase in prices and trying to gouge consumers. You get that from time to time. That's why the ACCC and the Climate Commission and others are working on making sure there is a fair outcome. But on the whole that is exactly what is taking place. Since July 1, as I said earlier, the sky hasn't fallen in and yes, there is a modest increase in a range of prices. But as opposed to direct action, what direct action means, the language sounds good. Direct means we all pay and we pay more. It comes straight out of the tax system rather than being just the top 500.
STEVE CIOBO:
Bernie seriously.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well look, I am being serious. That is exactly what a direct action means.
STEVE CIOBO:
Your Government introduced a carbon tax on the back of a lie. Your Prime Minister said only six days out from the election there will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead and then went and introduced a carbon tax. So please, spare us this notion that our system is going to be less effective. The reality is that your carbon tax has made Australia less competitive. Your carbon tax is pushing up the price of the most significant input and basically all forms of manufacturing and service delivery which is the cost of electricity. It's been done after your Prime Minister said she wouldn't do it. And when we say to your Prime Minister let's go back to the Australian people and let the Australian people chose, let the Australian people have the right to have their say about whether or not they want a carbon tax. Your Government has refused them.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, are you sure you've got it right on that? Because in today's Australian Financial Review the American multinational conglomerate GE is reported as saying that the carbon tax here in Australia is being seen as a role model internationally for that transition to a low carbon economy. GE, one of the world's most significant technology companies is saying that the price on carbon in Australia is a model for the world. That's a good thing, not a bad thing surely.
STEVE CIOBO:
Well Steve, I have no doubt that GE would take the view that the world's biggest carbon tax, which is what we have here in Australia, is a model for the world. The issue is though Steve that it has made Australia less competitive. We are less competitive now as a direct consequence of Labor's carbon tax. When we have been saying all along that this is the world's biggest carbon tax, we know it is, so I have no doubt that if you are a company like GE and say look what they are doing in Australia. Well that's fine. But the reality is Steve, when it comes to manufacturing for example, if you have a choice of manufacturing in Australia and paying a carbon tax or manufacturing elsewhere in the world and not paying a carbon tax, no points for guessing what the majority of people decide to do.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
If I can just come in. Just on the competition issue. We are not less competitive. In fact all the evidence, all the evidence, from every credible economic source - not Government but independent - clearly states Australia has a very good strong economy. You just can't have it that, for example in Queensland, the Treasurer in Queensland Jeff Seeney goes out to the rest of the world and says come and invest in Queensland and in Australia because we have the best economy in the world and we are more competitive than anyone else. You know what? It's backed up by a pipeline of investment around half a trillion dollars worth with projects well advanced around $143 billion. We have a strong economy with unemployment around the five per cent mark which is considered to be full employment. There are just good numbers across the board. Yes, times are tough but I'd much rather be doing business in Australia than in Spain.
STEVE AUSTIN:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane. It is 23 past nine. Inside Canberra with Bernie Ripoll and Steve Ciobo. My name is Steve Austin. Gentlemen, I hate to bring this up but let me raise the name of Craig Thompson. You'd be aware that the investigation into Mr Thompson has been described as flawed which I would have thought is an understatement. Bernie what is the major problem with the investigation into the funding, you know the rorting of millions of dollars of ordinary unionist funds by this union. It seems that everybody on your side of politics does not want to get to the bottom of this. Every possible hurdle, mistake, time delay, goodness knows what has been put in place of this matter and it's just becoming embarrassing.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well Steven, I wouldn't agree on parts of that. Look, it has taken too long, we all agree with that. Fair Work Australia have now demonstrated they were ill-equipped and under resourced to do this properly and that is not acceptable and they need to lift their game. But the Minister responsible in this area, Bill Shorten, has taken some really serious action. We've moved legislation and we want this to not happen in the future. We have changed the rules about the registration of organisations. So employer organisations and unions. A higher disclosure of remuneration, pecuniary interests, financial interests and we are requiring more education and training. We have taken, as a Government, action. The independence of Fair Work Australia and others is a problem and we've always said that this has taken too long. What Craig Thompson has now come out and said is in relation to the KPMG review of the Fair Work Australia report is that it did take too long and that it was a really painful exercise…
STEVE CIOBO:
…and it was stacked with former union friends of the ALP wasn't it Bernie?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well I don't know if they were any friends of ours, they didn't do us too many favours and look from my perspective and I think from a lot of others including I dare say without putting words into his mouth Craig Thompson's, if it was done a lot quicker and neater it would have been easier for everybody. I still can't understand why it took so long. It's not acceptable and that's why as a Government we've taken very strong action in this area so it doesn't happen in the future. (inaudible)
STEVE CIOBO:
Despite the length of time, there's serious doubt about the quality of its work. Even in the extraordinary length of time it took to do it.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Absolutely, and I've agreed with you on that. That's why I've said the review found it was ill-equipped and under resourced. It certainly appears while Fair Work Australia does a very good job on a whole range of areas about protecting employees and their entitlements and dealing with those matters. When it came to this particular type of investigation it was not properly equipped. It was under-resourced. It didn't do a good job. That's a matter now for Government and the Minister to deal with in terms of how that works in the future, but we have already taken action to make sure that these things don't happen again in the future because we don't believe as a Government that it was satisfactory. We have done everything that we possibly can. But we have not interfered. This is another point that's an important one. There is independence here. Had we have interfered, people would have actually criticised us on the basis of that. Interference, one way or the other, we have let an independent process run its course even though it did take too long. For Government to interfere in this at its beck and choosing would have been wrong also. I think it would have been an even more disastrous outcome.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo.
STEVE CIOBO:
The Government still relies on Craig Thompson's vote Steve. The reality is that every single day when Parliament sits, Craig Thompson votes generally always with the Government. When he does on the odd occasion decide to vote with the Coalition on generally routine matters of no consequence, we always makes sure that we have one person not in the Chamber or not taking part in the vote to cancel out his vote. The simple and inescapable reality is that this Government was formed with the support of Craig Thompson. This Government continues to rely on the support of Craig Thompson to hold onto office. Craig Thompson has had something like 150 charges which are still valid against him despite KPMG's report into Fair Work Australia. The reality is that those charges that they brought against Craig Thompson still stand and here we have a Government that continues to rely on his vote that ignores the fact that there are those charges sitting there and most importantly when you get back to the nub of the issue you are talking about $500,000 approximately, of money taken from among some of the most lowly paid workers in the Australian community that he used to fund a lavish lifestyle.
STEVE AUSTIN:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane. Gentlemen, let me wrap it up on a final question. To you Steve Ciobom first of all and then to Bernie. It's been said quietly and now publically in the papers that Tony Abbott seems to have a problem with women. You work with him Steve Ciobo. Does he have that many women in his office? There is a perception or a mounting public perception that Tony Abbott disrespects women at some sort of intellectual level or something.
STEVE CIOBO:
Let me be very clear on this. I reject that comprehensively and I also reject your assertions Steve that there is a mounting level of public opinion. What I saw yesterday was ridiculous. I saw three female Labor Ministers go out on the attack against Tony Abbott and this is a man who is married, has three daughters has a female Chief of Staff for example. You know, Tony Abbott, and I've observed him in very close quarters with not only his daughters, his wife and also his Peta Credlin, Chief of Staff. This notion, that he has a problem with women is ridiculous, it's incorrect, it's simply not true and it is nothing more than a smear campaign by the Labor Party. That's why the only people that were talking about it were three female Labor Ministers. In fact, when the actual Deputy Speaker was asked about this, and bear in mind it was the Deputy Speaker that apparently the Labor Ministers were concerned about, she herself said no he doesn't treat me any differently. So you know, take it from that.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll, in 30 seconds, do you want to respond. Why did three Labor women hop up in Parliament yesterday and have a go at him over this issue.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well, there is probably no question that Tony Abbott pulls no punches, women or men and that he has a particular style and it may not be to everyone's liking. Look, it is a matter for those individual people if they have their own view they're entitled to that view and if they believe they've been treated in a particular way. To balance up the ledger in terms of both sides and people do get a little bit precious on both sides occasionally about certain things, I think there is a legitimate case for some people to feel more aggrieved in terms of the way they're treated if they feel that they have been treated differently. That in a sense is a matter for Parliament.
STEVE AUSTIN:
I have to wrap it up Bernie, sorry I am going to lose the satellite link.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
That's fine.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll and Steve Ciobo, thank you very much for your time.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Thank you Steve.
STEVE CIOBO:
Thanks.