SUBJECTS: Newstart Allowance, carbon trading scheme, workplace agreements.
A podcast and mp3 download of this interview is available on the ABC website.
STEVE AUSTIN:
My name is Steve Austin and my two Canberra political figures this morning are Steve Ciobo. Steve is the Federal Liberal, or LNP, member for Moncrieff. Steve, good morning to you.
STEVE CIOBO:
Good morning Steve.
STEVE AUSTIN:
And Bernie Ripoll the Federal Labor Member for Oxley. Bernie, good morning to you.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Good morning Steve, how are you?
STEVE AUSTIN:
Let me just paint scene for my listeners. I'm actually making my guests stand. In fact, we are all standing this morning. I am worried that I'm getting the backside the size of a bus and a tummy to boot. I wanna make sure we do a bit more exercise by standing up and reduce the potential for type two diabetes. Is this desk high enough for you guys? Steve, how tall are you?
STEVE CIOBO:
Ahh, I'm 6.2. Just a fraction under 6.2.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Would you be 6.1 or 6 foot Bernie?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Ahh, 7 foot 4. No, about 5.10 and a half. Something like that. Eleven,
STEVE AUSTIN:
Are you 5.10? I must've shrunk. I feel smaller than you.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
5.11 ok.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Ok, I must be 5.10. Well, if the desk is not right please let me know. Now gentlemen, Steve. Bill Shorten. Bill has apparently said it's hard to live on his salary of $330,000 a year. Is it hard to live on a politician's salary?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
You can go first Steve.
STEVE CIOBO:
We're both leaning forward. Look Steve, I mean I think there's no surprises and most people I know, know that generally people tend to live in line with the salary that they receive.
STEVE AUSTIN:
You spend what you get.
STEVE CIOBO:
Yeah, generally that's been my experience. I mean I think back, Bernie and I were having a chat about this earlier, and we think back to our days at uni where you know you basically lived on the smell of an oily rag. You seemed to get by and now on the income levels that you have as a politician you're geared up with mortgages and all those kinds of things. I mean the reality is that you know, that most people they're doing well, they're sort of slightly in front and there's probably a sizeable whack that are always ten per cent behind though too I guess.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Yeah. Bernie Ripoll?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Look, I think we're actually paid well. Like everybody, you do live up to your means, whatever you earn and you increase your lifestyle as you get older and that's a normal thing. I think there is a problem in this country just generally, we tend to have a culture which means we live beyond our means and regardless whether you are on Newstart or whether you're a a basic wage earner or earning a lot of money, people can get in trouble financially regardless of how much they earn. So, that pressure that people feel regardless of what money they're earning can often be the same for someone who is on a little or a lot.
STEVE CIOBO:
This has come up obviously in the Newstart Allowance context that there is a push on for an increase in the Newstart Allowance to unemployed people. It's a balancing act isn't it? On one hand you want it to be enough a genuine social safety net to make sure that people don't starve and have to sell their soul to survive. At the same time you don't want it to be too much so that they are discouraged from doing everything possible to get a job, even if they might not necessarily like it. You know, where do you sit on the argument Bernie Ripoll?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well I agree with a whole range of these things in this particular area. One, Newstart is low, but it is just enough and if people say to me could you survive on that today my simple answer would be no, I can't. But if I had to readjust my life in those circumstances you'd do everything you could to do that. My biggest thought in my head about what would I do is I would go out and look for a job an get a job or get further training or do something so I could earn more money. And I think the real test here in this country is the fact that we have probably got the best set of numbers in terms of unemployment in the world. We are at full employment. Or thereabouts, you know around five per cent unemployment. You could always do better, there is no question about that. But the incentive is people ought to get training, educate themselves as best as they can, go out there and find some work and work. There are jobs available. The money, the incentive, you're right, the balance between trying to get the incentive right I think is pretty close, but it is tough if you are on Newstart.
STEVE AUSTIN:
I think you would probably agree with much of that, wouldn't you Steve Ciobo?
STEVE CIOBO:
Yeah, look I do. The major point I guess I'd bring it back to from the politics side of it Steve is that, you know, we've got to encourage people to create employment. It's that simple and what the most basic functions of government are is to get the regulation monkey off the backs of the small business sector. Because it is, it's become a cliché, but it is reality. Small business is the engine room that drives the economy. If we don't have small business owners out there willing to take a risk to employ someone. It is so much harder for someone to secure employment. And that's the reason why guys like me and others jump up and down about all the regulations we shove down the throats of small business people because at the end of the day they're trying to do a social good which is to generate profit, to employ people and to have a better standard of living all around.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Would the Coalition increase the Newstart Allowance?
STEVE CIOBO:
No, I don't think that's on our radar, but at this point in time we are the opposition and this is something that the Government has got to deal with.
STEVE AUSTIN:
So no one is really, on either side of politics, pushing for an increase in the Allowance at all?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well, I think we've made our policy position clear on this. We think the settings are right. We do understand that it is tough, there is no question about that. We think the policy settings are right, but it's not on its own. You've got to look at these things in the totality. People who get Newstart don't just get Newstart. Depending on their circumstance they'll get some extra allowances for if they have children or if they have other circumstances. There is also money for training. There is a whole range of programs and money that's spent to give people opportunities. It is about opportunities. I don't think that anyone would just agree that you just sit on Newstart and do nothing further. I think everyone expects that we all work towards something, even if it is difficult. And the Government certainly does provide a lot of programs in that area.
STEVE AUSTIN:
This 612 ABC Brisbane. It is 14 past 9. Steve Ciobo, Federal LNP Member for Moncrieff is my guest as is Bernie Ripoll. Bernie is the Federal Labor Member for Oxley and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer. Bernie what are the implications of linking Australia's carbon trading scheme to that of Europe's?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
I think it just makes good economic sense. The reality is that we have got a market-based system in Australia which is the right way to go. It's set at this point in time for three years at $23 a tonne on emissions. We did have a floor which was going to be set at $15. But we understand that in a changing …
STEVE AUSTIN:
That essentially means you couldn't go below that minimum.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
…that's right. You couldn't go below the $15 minimum. But I think it is sensible and I think it is good policy to change when circumstances change. What that now means is there will now be no floor and we will peg to the rest of the world. And that will mean a less of a burden on industry in Australia if that's what the market demands. If the market is shifting we shouldn't resist it in that sense. We are now part of a global system. We always were anyway and I think what this tells us or what this demonstrates for us is the whole world has come on board here. Even China, India. Everybody is doing something. They are doing it in different forms. It takes a different policy perspective, but you can't just sit on the sideline and go we are not on this planet, we are somewhere else. Reality is we all have to do something.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo?
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, I've found it fascinating that Bernard, sorry didn't meant to be so formal.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
You can call me Bernard, that's alright.
STEVE CIOBO:
That Bernie referred to it as less of a burden on business. I mean it's a concession that this is in fact a massive burden on business. This is a massive burden on all Australians. And you know, the reality is this. I heard an economic commentator this morning on radio saying this is akin to tying yourself to the Titanic which is basically what the Federal Labor Government is doing now by tying themselves to Europeans' economic fortunes in many respects. But that not withstanding, Steve, the simple fact is this. We've got a government that for the next three years is saying to Australian businesses you're going to pay $23 a tonne. Tough luck that it's actually trading at about $9 or $10 for a carbon permit at the moment. But you are going to pay $23 a tonne. So there's the first thing. That's an excessive burden on Australian businesses that others don't have to face.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Australian businesses are pretty good at tax avoidance or minimising their tax and the whole point of the carbon scheme is they want you to avoid using carbon based energy. They could use the same techniques to minimise their tax burden from the carbon tax.
STEVE CIOBO:
The whole point of a carbon tax Steve is to make electricity more expensive. That is what it is all about.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Exactly. To avoid using it fossil fuels.
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, to make electricity more expensive.
STEVE AUSTIN:
To avoid using fossil fuels.
STEVE CIOBO:
So that every input is more expensive. That's what it's all about. I mean never lose sight of the fact that the sole purpose of this is when the price of electricity goes up, Julia Gillard and Bernie are smiling happily because they know that the carbon tax is working.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Can I just give you a counterview to that?
STEVE CIOBO:
Please do.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
He said the sole purpose is to make the price of electricity go up. It's not actually the case. The purpose is actually to make people, make energy producers more efficient and you don't actually have to increase the price to be more efficient. In fact, what we will see for the first time is a real incentive to do the right thing. To become more productive, more efficient, more competitive…
STEVE CIOBO:
How does a power station become more productive, more efficient and more competitive?
STEVE AUSTIN:
Keep going Bernie.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
…Yeah, I was going to say, if you haven't figured that out, then you're missing something. Innovation, entrepreneurship and the ability of business…
STEVE CIOBO:
Give me a break. Seriously.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
…No, I won't give you a break on this one.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Keep going.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
The reality is, it's designed to change the way we do things. Because if we don't, it'll change for us. We can't ignore what's happening globally. We can't ignore responsibilities…
STEVE CIOBO:
Which is not much. That's actually the answer.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
…We can't ignore the fact that we're part of a larger economy. What the carbon pricing system will do in Australia is change an economy. But it also changes for the better because it creates whole new set of industries. And if you look at whether it's bio energy, bio gas, whether it's solar, whether it's wind, whether there is a whole new industry, and if you talk to the steel manufacturers or manufacturing in Australia, they are actually talking about where their new market is and it's actually in renewables. It's actually in providing the infrastructure to build around this new economy which we're helping to build. We are not building it, we are helping to build it.
STEVE AUSTIN:
I think the Opposition's line, Steve Ciobo, has been that Australia is the only country that is doing this. Couldn't they argue that we are pioneering, that we are leading the world?
STEVE CIOBO:
Steve, absolutely, we could argue that and the Labor Party can argue that, …
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Happy to argue that.
STEVE CIOBO:
…because that's exactly what's going on. We are out ahead of the world, this Government has put Australia on a platform. Whereby we are, because of the imposition of this carbon tax, a carbon tax of course Steve - let's not forget - based on a lie. Let's never forget that. There's no electoral mandate for this. Based on a lie. We are putting Australia in a less…
STEVE AUSTIN:
The problem actually, Tony Abbott never lets anyone forgive it. It's the only thing Tony Abbott seems to stand for. He's pointing the finger at Julia Gillard.
STEVE CIOBO:
Seriously.
STEVE AUSTIN:
What does Tony Abbott believe in? Pointing the finger at Julia Gillard?
STEVE CIOBO:
No, no, no. I am going to refute you on that comprehensively. I mean let's actually look at this. That may be all the media likes to focus on Steve, but let's not lose sight…
STEVE AUSTIN:
Yes, it's always us.
STEVE CIOBO:
Of a whole range of positive announcements, let's not lose sight of the fact that for example you know Labor's, I mean for four years we were arguing what they had done to border protection and now they adopt our border protection policies. So, you know, there are actually a raft of various, he's made headline statements, headline announcements at the National Press Club for example and we will of course release more as the Federal election builds up. But to get back to the point of the carbon tax mate. We are talking about the world's biggest carbon tax. We're talking about making Australian industry less competitive because they have to pay more today. $23 a tonne versus what the Europeans are paying at $10 a tonne. I mean it's just basic common sense.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Short term gain for long term pain. I mean short term pain for long term gain.
STEVE CIOBO:
But what is the gain? I mean this is this amazing thing. What is the gain here? I mean, Australia contributes about 0.5 per cent of global emission. China for example last year increased their global emissions. The global emissions increase in China was more than Australia's total output. So, you know, what is this massive gain that apparently Australia is doing? Bernie, tell me this. How much is the temperature going to drop because your Government introduced the carbon tax?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well, that seriously is just a silly argument. It is silly in this sense that it's about trying to make this into just black and white issues and over-simplifying and trying to make it all about just one thing. It's about a whole raft of things. It is about changing an economy. It's about where the world is heading. It's about being part of a larger system. Carbon trading, emissions trading schemes are not new. We've been talking about them for 20 years. Seeing wind towers and seeing solar and seeing some of the more innovative processes…
STEVE CIOBO:
None of which provides base load power.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Keep going.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
…You can get base load power in fact from wind energy, you can get it from bio gas, you can get it from a whole range of areas. But it's about a total system. If all politics become was the simplistic in or out, yes or no, we wouldn't get very far in this world and we wouldn't have the strong economy we've got today. You need a Government that can be focussed on a whole range of things at the same time. And Steve said, you know, they taken our policy on border protection and offshore processing. The reality is, as a minority Government we've been able to achieve what was impossible for the previous Government with a majority in both Houses which demonstrates when you have the tenacity and you've got the will to move forward on even the most complex and controversial of issues you can find solutions and that's what we've done.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, I was thinking that we in the media often accuse politicians of all colours of being short sighted. The Federal Government in this case could argue, you know, that they are actually answering that by being very long-sighted. In other words the pay-off for this mightn't be for 20 years down the track. That's a long-sighted policy. You can almost call that political vision in a sense.
STEVE CIOBO:
You know, I think Steve that if I look at my two children and I think about their future I can very comfortably look at them and know we have a support of a policy that is actually about doing a couple of things. The first is not making Australians further indebted. Because at the end of the day those are the kids that have to pay off the debt this Government has racked up. So when I go along to school hall opening that the Labor Party likes to crow about how they've got this new beaut new infrastructure at schools. Well, guess what. It's those kids, it's those kids sitting in those schools that are going to be paying that debt off the next 20 years. And when it comes to climate change, I know that Australia's standard of living should be better in the future because we haven't made our industry and our economy less competitive. For what purpose? So that we can feel good about ourselves because we made 0.0001 per cent of a difference?
STEVE AUSTIN:
23 minutes past 9. This is 612 ABC Brisbane. My guests are Steve Ciobo. Steve is the LNP Member for Moncrieff on the Gold Coast or based around the Gold Coast. Bernie Ripoll is the Labor Member for Oxley on the sort of south-west side of Brisbane.
Individual workplace agreements or AWA's, Steve Ciobo, I believe it was you who raised the idea. Just roll it out to me again as to why you're so keen on the idea when your leader Tony Abbott in his book 'Battlelines' thought it was not a very good idea.
STEVE CIOBO:
Well, I said that I support individual contracts Steve, because currently under Australian law, thanks to the Labor Party, it is actually illegal for an employer and employee to reach a contract, an individual statutory agreement. If that is seriously the view they have over the Australian economy, that an employer and employee can't reach an agreement between the pair of them that doesn't leave the employee any worse off, well then heaven help us, seriously. I mean, we have got to step up to the plate now and the other important point to realise here because people like Bernie an Wayne Swan go, oh it's WorkChoices coming back again. This big bogey man of WorkChoices. Well, guess what, individual contracts existed for a decade before WorkChoices. And the great intellectual dishonesty from the Labor Party is to attempt to try to tie WorkChoices and individual contracts together as if they both eventuated at the same time which is 100 per cent completely untrue.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Bernie?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
This is a tale of two factories as it were because on one hand individual contracts, you know, if you are in senior management or in management or if you have a capacity to be able to negotiate somewhat fairly about your own position, an individual contract might be a really good thing for you. But if you are one of a hundred people or a thousand people in a factory, there is no individual agreement apart from what you are told to sign; take it or leave it. What we've made sure is that we want to protect workers, we want to make sure that they have minimum wages, minimum standards that they have in fact even better than that. And that's the point, that's the tale of two workers. Those that who have the capacity to negotiate and I'm sure Steve, being the fine radio presenter that you are, you could negotiate a really good agreement here and nobody would expect less. And I am sure Steve Ciobo would do the same…
STEVE AUSTIN:
I don't know, I mercifully have reasonable bosses. I am one of the few people that has a good boss.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
…Yeah, which is even better. But if you are somebody working in a tile factory in my electorate or a steel manufacturing plant…
STEVE AUSTIN:
Particularly unskilled labour, is what you are talking about?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
…Particularly unskilled labour. There is no such thing as an individual contract because you are just given something and you are told this is what you are getting. Under what the former Howard Government did and the real individual contracts, they were secret agreements. They were about making sure that you were not, and they were, they just were, look it's just fact…(inaudible)
STEVE AUSTIN:
Contract with confidentiality.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well, they were, but they were secret for one reason. They were confidential because they didn't want you telling anybody else how little you were getting…(inaudible)
STEVE AUSTIN:
Or how much.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Or how much and they were playing one off against the other. Look in the end there are principles here, the principles are that people ought to get a far and decent wage for the work that they do and there ought to be a system around that and there is. I am more than happy to stand up on our credentials in industrial relations, looking after working people, making sure they get a fair go. I don't want something special extra, that's a job for others to negotiate and for individuals where they possibly can. But at least a fair decent minimum system. That's what I'm interested in.
STEVE CIOBO:
That is such a skewed world view. I mean Bernie, what you fail to recognise with that little story you just told is that actually the vast majority of workplaces in Australia today aren't about factories where there is 500 people being having employment contracts shoved down their throat being told take it or leave it. The true story of the bulk of Australian employment today is that it is in small businesses. It's where there might be one or two or three employees. That's actually where the bulk of employees are employed and to imply that it is this massive area of confrontation between the employer and the employee does a massive injustice to those people that are actually about rolling up their sleeves and making this country a better place, providing employment opportunities for new employees and that's why this notion that they shouldn't be able to sit down and have an agreement between and employer and an employee is farcical.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well, look, I agree that small business is the backbone of this country and a lot of businesses, Steve's right, a lot of businesses are two and three person business and are employing people. But that's why we've got really good awards. That's why we've modernised awards. That's why we've created a minimum standard. It's just too difficult where somebody…
STEVE CIOBO:
So why not have flexibility?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Well, there is flexibility built in. But that's why we have minimum standards and laws around this because there is a necessity for them. Because if you're a young person, you are more than likely going to be taken advantage of. We ought to make sure there are minimum standards so that no one can advantage of you.
STEVE CIOBO:
No one is trying to take that away. Individual contracts don't take that away Bernie.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Unfortunately the lived experience tell us a different story, because we have had the lived experience and it was not a good one. People want a fair system and I think that's what we've got. Now we can always work on more flexibility and, you know…
STEVE AUSTIN:
I think it depends on who you talk to. I talk to different businesses that have a range of views on the AWAs. Some say it was good, some not so good. I think the point, or as I understand the Coalition's position on AWAs is what it gives us, greater flexibility…
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Sure. Look I think you're right.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Than currently exists.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Look there might be two different views and in different worlds, certainly from business. Some businesses, it may suit them more than others. But I think there is a clear view from people who are the workers, who actually go out and who actually create that wealth for others through their capital, that's fine. But their view is, they were getting the rough end of the deal. They were getting the sharp end of the pineapple (inaudible)
STEVE CIOBO:
So Bernie, when it existed for ten years before WorkChoices came in. For ten years. Why was there no burning issue to deal with it then. Why all of a sudden has it only come about as being a point of preoccupation for your Government since WorkChoices. I think the only reason is because you guys think you've got a political bogey man in WorkChoices and it suits people like Wayne Swan to run employment contracts and WorkChoices together in the same sentence and to hell with the fact that you have made this nation less competitive and to hell with the fact that for a lot of employees, this means less flexibility when it comes to choosing the hours they want to work, when it comes to having the flexibility to, for example, drop the kids off at school and then go to the office.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
High wages, low unemployment, inflation under control, a good economy, this country is moving forward. That's the evidence of what we are doing.
STEVE CIOBO:
All that existed before.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, can I ask you, what did Tony Abbott say to you when you raised this a few days ago? Because he wasn't a big fan of it. In fact he described WorkChoices as a catastrophic political blunder at the time. Now I know you are saying this is not WorkChoices, this is just individual workplace agreements, or AWAs. When you first started, what five days ago I think, it cropped up again. At least that's when I heard it, sort of in the public sphere. What did Tony Abbott say to you, anything?
STEVE CIOBO:
Sure, well, he and I haven't spoken about it in the last five days. Look the point I would make though Steve, is I've been a proponent of individual contracts for years now, this isn't a recent thing. And I've indicated, I will continue to push this because this is what makes sense and this notion that because there's a rotten three per cent of the working population and working employers that therefore that's gotta be the standard that applies across the other ninety seven per cent is ridiculous.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Steven, any time that Steve Ciobo wants to disagree with Tony Abbott, I'll be there supporting him. I'll give you all the help you want. I'll give you all the help you want.
STEVE AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll, Steve Ciobo, thanks very much for your time.
BERNIE RIPOLL:
Thank you.
STEVE CIOBO:
Thank you.