SUBJECTS: Gonski Review, Federal funding, Afghanistan and proposed national security reforms.
A podcast and mp3 download of this interview is available on the ABC website.
STEVE AUSTIN:
We go Inside Canberra, through the eyes and the ears and the intellect of two Federal MPs. Steve Ciobo. Steve Ciobo is the LNP Federal Member for Moncrieff, based loosely on the Gold Coast. In fact Steve, just give me the boundaries of your seat if you will please.
STEVE CIOBO:
The Northern boundary is Southport, the Southern boundary is North Burley and I go West to Nerang.
AUSTIN:
And East to the coast line. The beach.
CIOBO:
That's right, the eroding beach.
AUSTIN:
The eroding beach. Bernie Ripoll is the Federal Labor member for Oxley. Bernie is, you're in Sydney today, is that right?
BERNIE RIPOLL:
I am in Sydney, that's right, yes. Just doing the financial literacy week events.
AUSTIN:
Well, I'll ask you about education in just a moment Bernie. But just give me the boundaries of the seat of Oxley on the South-West side of Brisbane city.
RIPOLL:
Sure, it's got three distinct areas. One based around Inala, Forest Lake, Pallara, that area. I've got Greater Springfield with Collingwood Park, Redbank, towards Ipswich, and I've got all of the Brisbane Western suburbs; Sinnamon Park, River Hills on that side of the river. On the Ipswich side of the river.
AUSTIN:
It's a real mixed bag, a sort of working-class and middle class and a little bit of the upper class in your seat.
RIPOLL:
I've got a bit of everything actually, it's a lot of fun.
AUSTIN:
Well, Bernie yesterday, sorry the day before yesterday we awaited more details about the Federal Government's plans for the review by David Gonski, of education, in Queensland. And there appeared to be quite a significant lack of detail. First of all, what are the government's plans for rolling out the Gonski Review. And I'm giving you the chance to sort of restate what you hope to do.
RIPOLL:
Sure. Well I think is actually quite a bit of detail. I think that the most important details is that finally, somebody has stepped up to the plate and said this is important and we will do something because in the absence of that, nothing is going to change. That doesn't mean it is easy, but it does mean we are doing something, I think we've also made some significant progress. So what we want to do is make sure Australia, again, takes its proper place in the world. We want to be top five in terms of education in the world, in terms of reading, maths and science by 2025. It can be done. But funding has got to be based on need. We are going to focus on six specific areas; low SES, kids with a disability, indigenous students, the size of the school, rural and remote students, kids with poor English skills. Now funding, obviously it is going to cost a lot of money. About $6.5 billion per year. But we are making sure that every single school continues to have funding grow and no school, none at all, will lose any money in this proposal. That's the whole point, we have focussed on that. We're making sure that in all of our planning and policy that every school wins because every child deserves the same opportunities. Regardless of where they are from. We want to make sure we are working with teachers, with the actual school principals and with the school itself to increase transparency and accountability and on funding, we do want to work with the states and the states are coming to the table and we are having the discussions. We are going to get there on this. And that's why we have introduced a six year transition, cause it can't just do it overnight. We accept that, we accept that this is really significant, key reform, so it is going to take some time. We are going to start in 2014.
AUSTIN:
I'll come to Steve Ciobo in a moment, but I spoke with the state Education Minister John‑Paul Langbroek yesterday, and there wasn't much he could answer because he says that you've told them little or nothing at all. And given that it is the states who deliver education, not the Federal Government, shouldn't you have brought them in a lot earlier and with more detail about how you expect the states to deliver your plans.
RIPOLL:
Sure. Well look, firstly, the Queensland Government has already indicated it's got in principle support for our recommendations. So I think that needs to be clear. Now look there is plenty of detail if the Education Minister doesn't have any, I'm happy to have a meeting with him and provide him with reams of detail and reams of discussions and meetings that has been had or taking place. We are at the beginning, right, this is what people need to understand. We are at the beginning. This is the start of something new, so it is not complete, not everything is there. There are still negotiations to be had, but that shouldn't distract people from the fact that at the core, at the centre of this, we need to do it. That's the key thing here. We gotta keep refocusing our eyes back on what the core thing here is and it's young kids, it's students, it's our kids. We all agree, there's definite agreement on we gotta do something better. This is the way forward.
AUSTIN:
Bernie Ripoll is the Federal Labor member for Oxley and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer, Wayne Swan. Steve Ciobo, the Federal member for Moncrieff. Your response Steve.
CIOBO:
Well, Steve all these syrupy flavour of the year car salesmen frankly from Bernie, you know if you're listening to that you'd be almost sold, wouldn't you? The reality is though, and what Bernie is failing to mention is that when you cut through all the platitudes, at the core of this issue lays a $6.5 billion per annum deficit that this government's got, because they simply can't pay for this policy alone. That's why it's put off to the never never. They are talking about this being fully implemented by the year 2020. You know, listeners should be aware of that. They're talking about this being 2020. They have approximately $20 billion of commitments that they've made with no ability to pay for it. Not even the faintest idea about where they are going to get this money from and the challenge that I've gotten, you know, I've been to a number of the school hall openings that Labor likes to trumpet about how they're investing in our kids and what a wonderful job they are doing for Aussie kids. Well, you know what? When I go to those school hall openings Steve, and this is exactly the same, because it is the exact same kind of unfunded promise that Labor puts out there. The reality is that the people who are going to paying all that debt off for the next twenty years are those Aussie kids that apparently, Bernie and Julia Gillard are so concerned about and so overcome with wanting to help. Well, the best way they can help them is not saddle them with $20 billion of promises that they simply can't fund.
AUSTIN:
The states are going to have to pay for this Bernie Ripoll, how much extra money from the Federal Government will Queensland get?
RIPOLL:
Well, firstly, there's plenty of blunt instruments in Canberra as well. I just thought I'd just, since you started with that comment at the beginning. Look, there's two proposals here. There's one for 2020, so that's six years and I think that's a fair way to do something which is going to cost a fair bit of money and people would understand that. But 2020's a lot better than 20-never.
CIOBO:
You don't have the money though Bernie. Where's the money coming from? You've got $120 billion unfunded black hole in your budget, where is the money coming from?
RIPOLL:
Well, I've got to tell you, if we are going to get in to black holes, there's a lot bigger black hole that's with the Coalition. But I don't want to make that point here today. What we're doing is sitting down with the states and we're saying to them; let's work together on this, let's find a way to do it. We said we will make the necessary budget savings. We will work harder at a Federal level to make this happen. This is a core policy, this is important policy. This is at the very being of what Australia is about and it's about education, and education is what will help us to do all the things that we know we need to do. Grow in the future, to innovate, to provide the entrepreneurs, to provide the skills and training, the jobs of the future. Unless you back it with education, unless you back it with funding. It's not going to happen. I am more than…
AUSTIN:
How much will Queensland get to implement the plans though Bernie Ripoll, do you know yet? I mean…
RIPOLL:
No, look Steve, I don't know.
AUSTIN:
No one seems to have been told.
RIPOLL:
No well, nor should they be because we haven't settled or finalised any of that. There's still a fair bit of work to be done and that's why we're saying we're going to start in 2014 officially. It'll take six years to implement and it'll give the states, and it'll give the Federal Government, time to negotiate work through find where we're going to get the money from and the savings. But again, the core principle here remains; we need to do something, we've all agreed on that. So what is the plan? Well, an eminent Australian called David Gonski has gone out there and done his work and, pretty much everyone agrees it's a really good plan. Most people have said it's a bit too expensive. We've remodelled some of his work, so that we think it is affordable and we've taken out some of the red tape bureaucracy that was included in some of the original modelling and we think we've got something and we're starting to see the states sign up to it, because they agree it's good and we've got quite a few states, including Queensland, they've indicated in-principle support. They recognise what this can do for Australia and what it can do for Queensland.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo?
CIOBO:
I mean this is farcical, frankly Steve. Absolutely farcical. I mean let's be clear and listeners should have no illusion about what is going on here. We've got a Government that is all about announcement and not big on delivery. This is a Government that realises that we are going to an election in less than 12 months. So you have Julia Gillard and people like, salesmen like Bernie here that are out there saying, oh look, we are all concerned about providing the best education for our kids. This is about the big picture, this is about the aspiration. 2020 is better than 20-never. You know what, why don't they just deal with the Australian people as intellectual equivalents, instead of treating Aussies as idiots. The reality is, there is no money for this. There is no funding available. They have a massive $120 billion unfunded liability over the budget and beyond, in what they call the out-years, because this government is all about massive announcements with no ability to be able to pay for it. And the net result of this Steve will be no different to what we've seen in Queensland after 20 years of Labor at a state government level, leaving us with $85 billion of debt. These guys federally, are doing exactly the same thing.
AUSTIN:
This is 612 ABC Brisbane and on the Sunshine Coast, Coast FM 90.3, 95.3. A quick one Bernie and then I want to ask a change of question.
RIPOLL:
Sure, look Steve would be right, if we'd done nothing else but just put his on the table, but that's just not the case. You know, we've reformed national curriculum, we've been working with the states from the day we were elected in 2007. This is not new for us…
CIOBO:
Where's the funding Bernie?
RIPOLL:
We've actually got credibility in this area because we've delivered in this area. Extra funding to schools across the board, the MySchools websites, further accountability and transparency for schools, we've empowered schools. Teacher excellence and professionalism, money on the table, already delivered.
CIOBO:
What money?
RIPOLL:
We've been working on… Money already delivered by the way. Already delivered. We've already delivered on a whole range of areas including testing across the country and for the first time, in more than 100 years of education in this country, a national curriculum; something that we can do that can be transposed from one state to the next. It took a Labor Government and it took 100 years for us to get there. This is the next phase of our ambitious plans, but it's a good plan and it's a worthwhile plan.
AUSTIN:
19 minutes past nine. Bernie Ripoll, Federal Labor member for Oxley, is my guest and Steve Ciobo. Steve is the Federal Liberal member for Moncrieff, and my name is Steve Austin. There have been a number of commentators Bernie that observe that the Federal Government, and Julia Gillard in particular has now announced her plans for a National Disability Insurance Scheme, a national dental scheme and now the results of the Gonski Review. All of these things the states have to deliver, not the Federal Government and it's been observed that this looks like Julia Gillard is just setting, now that she has conservative Premiers in much of the country, it's giving her the perfect pre-election enemy, if you like, pre-federal election enemy, that all these things that the Federal Government is not clear about how they are going to fund it but she expects someone else to deliver it and so she is able to attack the states, you know, who are conservative while actually not giving them the money they need. Can I ask you to address that? You have made very expensive announcements in the last few months and there's not much money come with it.
RIPOLL:
Steven, there's a curious thing that happens in this country, because for the last 20 years at least that I can recall, everybody; the states, local government, mums and dads in the street, business people, have been asking and demanding for these very things that we're now starting the process on implementing and negotiating with the states, and I think they are good things. I think a National Disability Insurance Scheme is well overdue. When will somebody start that? When will someone have the courage? When will a government step up to the plate? Well, we decided it is going to be us and we've decided you've got to start somewhere. At some point. And whether it's that or whether it's the dental program, yes, I agree with you; often these things are delivered by state governments, but the policy initiatives come from the Federal Government. Funding assistance comes from the Federal Government and there's a whole range of mechanisms that are negotiated in terms of how we do these things better. On the dental one in particular, we've got a…
AUSTIN:
Well, the dental scheme's is four point something billion, the NDIS is $5 billion, Gonski is $6.8 billion. That's a lot of billions that the Federal Government doesn't deliver.
RIPOLL:
It is.
AUSTIN:
The states deliver it. The Feds have to hand over the money. The states are saying that they haven't seen the money.
RIPOLL:
Well, Steven, they're done in isolation. Again, this is the technical point, it's not on top of what is already there. For example, in dental there are massive savings to be made in redesigning the way dental services are provided. So you make savings on one hand, you have better policy on the other and you deliver the money through those savings. Now if that means, you've gotta re-do some things and reform in some areas. The reality is, do we just all give up, throw our hands up in the air. Give up and say: well, you know, sure we all agree it's not good enough and we all agree that there are millions and millions of dollars wasted particularly in the dental area for the wrong services, or to actually to something about it. That's what we're doing.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo.
CIOBO:
You know the alternative Steve, is to actually live within your means. That's what the alternative is. The alternative is not to be out there trumpeting that you're some great grand visionary Federal Labor Government. When I heard Julia Gillard giving her speech on Gonski, I must say, all I could hear her channelling was Bob Hawke's no Australian child will live in poverty by 1990 speech and frankly it ought to be met with exactly the same degree of scepticism because Bob Hawke and people like Bernie would have stood up and said, you know what no Australian child should live in poverty and isn't this a great aspiration. But it all came to nought and this is going to be no different. With the dental scheme, with the NDIS, with Gonski, you're exactly right Steve, we are talking about 10's of billions of dollars and the Federal Government has a massive political problem. What they are attempting to do is hoodwink the Australian people to lead in to the next election, which is less than 12 months away now, and say these are all our bold visions for Australia, get on board, and don't worry about the detail and that's why we hear this sort of rambling words from Bernie about, well you know we've gotta make savings here and do this there and I think there's a better way. The reality is what they need is honesty, what they need is a Government that says we're not going to be able to commit to that, because frankly we can't afford it and so what we are going to do is to commit to lesser targets, we're going to look at removing the shackles off our economies, shackles like the carbon tax, shackles like the mining tax, which is making us less competitive.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo is my guest, as is Bernie Ripoll. Bernie do you want to respond briefly and then I want to ask you about Afghanistan.
RIPOLL:
Sure, look just briefly, I mean, again, in these areas, first you have to have the ideas, you have to have listened to the community and understand what is necessary, you also have to understand that there are some big areas that have been just left undone for a very long time, decades or sometimes more than one generation. Because they cost a lot of money doesn't mean they're not affordable. They cost a lot of money, but they are a reform agenda item which means that you can actually work, through, you can actually get to this stuff by making savings in other areas. And just as a quick counter, I mean, I would like to get Steve to explain you know the $10 billion industry paid-for maternity leave policy for the Coalition.
CIOBO:
Ok. Sure, happy to.
RIPOLL:
$10 billion. Where's $10 billion coming from. I mean industry pays it but in the end, that's just a pass on costs that's as big as the carbon tax.
CIOBO:
But see the difference Bernie is that I can answer the detail on this questions because we have it. The reality is that we'll be looking at a 1.5 per cent reduction in company tax and for the largest companies, and I think the threshold is $20 million turnover. They'll have a 1.5 per cent imposition or levy put on them which means that in net terms, they'll be no worse off and with respect to all the other companies in Australia, they'll be 1.5 per cent better off. And there are balances found through budget savings which we have already identified. So that's how we'll fund it and that's the reason why we say our policy is superior to yours and that's the reason why we can provide detail, unlike your government, which is all about announcement and not about delivery.
AUSTIN:
Twenty-five minutes past nine. This is 612 ABC Brisbane and Coast FM on the Sunshine Coast, 90.3 and 95.3 Coast FM. Bernie Ripoll and Steve Ciobo are my guests. Chaps, today the bodies of Australian soldiers who were killed by someone who we thought we were helping in Afghanistan. The bodies of three diggers returned home today, I think they fly into Ipswich at about 10.30. I know the official position is that we are fully supportive of the position in Afghanistan, but at a personal level, are you at all troubled or uncertain of the strength of our support for Afghanistan. Bernie can I come with you first of all please?
RIPOLL:
Sure, Please. Thank you. Look, it is always tragic, any loss of life in any circumstances, but particularly in these cause we are out there doing something specifically for the Afghan people. We are also doing something specifically for us as well. This is an important mission and it is a mission that we have all agreed on. I know the Coalition and Steven would have the same view on that, that regardless who was in Government. It is always complicated and it is not easily won in terms of what we have to achieve but we are working through that. Just quickly on some of the comments that have been made by President Karzai and perhaps others, is that firstly, Australian soldiers are the best in the world. They are also the most highly skilled, the most effective, but also the most decent and they do the right thing and we have very, very high standards. Australian soldiers have very high standards for themselves as well as what we expect of them. The mission they were on, was an authorised mission, it was always a detailed mission and Australian soldiers always hold their own. They do the right thing by everybody and I'm really proud of them.
AUSTIN:
Do you have any nervousness personally about our involvement in Afghanistan Bernie?
RIPOLL:
Well, there's plenty to be nervous about in terms of what it represents and what it means. But I'm even more …
AUSTIN:
In a sense we are there for moral reasons aren't we…(inaudible)
RIPOLL:
No, absolutely not.
AUSTIN:
We are there for our values in a sense.
RIPOLL:
No, I think we are there for a much more real and serious reason. I worry much more about the fact that if we all just walked away from Afghanistan, the Taliban very quickly regains its strength and position and starts doing again what it did in the past, not only to Afghan people, but starts to target us as well. We don't live in a vacuum here. This is only just one planet and it's not that far away between one particular zone of war and where we live. And that threat is real. We know that from experience. We can't just pretend this doesn't happen and unfortunately there is a high cost and a high price to be paid for that security we enjoy here in Australia.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, what about yourself, what are your thoughts on this?
CIOBO:
Well, look, obviously condolences go to the families of those soldiers that are returning today. The reality is that this is always a sad state of affairs and you'd never ideally want to place any Australian in harm's way. Let alone, what I believe are some of Australia's finest men and women in our defence forces. Aside from that, I agree with everything else that Bernie said.
AUSTIN:
You don't' have any nervousness or in those dark moments before you go to sleep you wonder are we doing the right thing there in Afghanistan?
CIOBO:
I don't think you would be human if you didn't ask yourself that question just about every day. I mean you cannot be a Parliamentarian and I believe have such a sense of conviction and I think in fact it's dangerous to have such a sense of conviction that you'd never question the validity of putting young Australians in harm's way. So, absolutely I do Steve and I constantly assess and ask myself, can I justify what's going on here as a Member of Parliament. Ultimately, and for the reasons that Bernie outlined, you know, it's felt very really and very keenly the cost of losing our troops on the ground. What's harder to feel is the benefits from our troops being there. What's harder to feel is the terrorist networks, the state-sponsored terrorism , the connections and the training that's provided, which we don't see and we also don't necessarily immediately feel the benefits of, although they are very tangible and they are there and that's unfortunately what we need to weigh up in these circumstances.
AUSTIN:
It must be very hard when our blokes need to look over their shoulders all the time and see if the person that's supposed to be their friend may or may not be aiming a gun at them.
CIOBO:
Absolutely, and that's, you know, the most distressing part and I know from speaking with veterans and troops that that is their real concern, that now there is that lack of trust that exists between the Afghanis we're training and our troops on the ground.
AUSTIN:
Bernie, what about yourself. It must be very difficult for the Australian soldiers there to constantly have to look over their shoulder to see if the person they're training, the person they're relying on, you know the people they're helping, whether they're actually a friend or an enemy.
RIPOLL:
Absolutely Steven, and I think in a way it demonstrates the difficulty of this whole campaign, the complexity of it and what we're up against. We're up against, sometimes invisible forces and Steven made a very good point too about it's very hard sometimes for us here in the safety and comfort of our Australian shores to really fully grasp or understand just what lies just underneath the surface and what we are dealing with and how we are continuing to provide that security sometimes from afar. We're working with a whole range of really good people and Australian soldiers I think get it. I think they understand, that they know first hand, they know why they're there and they understand their mission. So, it is sad. It's always going to be sad. The cost of war is always very high and for some people it is that ultimate price.
AUSTIN:
Steve Ciobo, there was some movement online monitoring of Australians' data and you're troubled by what you describe as a backflip by Nicole Roxon. Just explain and I'll give Bernie Ripoll a chance to respond.
AUSTIN:
Sure. Well I'm very troubled by it Steve. The Attorney General has left the door open to legislating that ISPs, that is Internet Service Providers, and others will be required to maintain all data for two years for every single person that has an account with them. So, what that means is that in Australia, a Western democracy, a country founded on freedom, a country whose very foundations go to the view that as people we reign supreme over the state and the state exists to serve our needs. We're now inversing that and we're now going to have a situation arise where every single piece of data that is transmitted, every webpage you look at, every email, phone calls that are made, and all the like, are now having the door left open to being forced to be maintained by private providers for the benefit of the Government and frankly I find this abhorrent. We are talking about undoing one of the most fundamental pillars of Western democracy and, you know, I hear arguments from people who say to me, oh but Steve, if you're not doing anything wrong, what have you got to worry about? Well, my response to that Steve, is that if that is the situation, well then why don't we also operate on the principle that we allow police to randomly search homes, we allow police to randomly intercept any phone call that they want. You know, we have as a fundamental issue in our society, the issue and the right to anonymity and privacy. There is already an existing framework for, you know, intelligence services and others to obtain warrants where warrants are felt to be reasonably necessary and for this reason, I reject completely Nicola Roxon attempting to turn every Australian into a situation where all their data is retained.
AUSTIN:
Every time you look up Beer and Boobs magazine, Bernie, there it is. The Government has got the data. Are you worried about that?
RIPOLL:
Talk about sensationalism and making a google out of a megabyte. I mean seriously. It is nothing of the sort, I mean, it's great to get yourself on TV and get plenty of airplay in relation to making these sort of claims. But it's nothing like that at all. It's a very small part of a very large suite of reforms in national security and that very small part is not government policy. In fact, it is not even drafted and unlike the previous Howard Government, we're actually going out to the community to ask their view. It's completely on the table, it's open, transparent and it's honest (inaudible)
AUSTIN:
So it's not a full gone conclusion, Bernie Ripoll?
RIPOLL:
Far from it. Far from it. In fact it's before a committee, it's not policy. There is no drafting being done, but like I said, unlike the previous Howard Government, rather than just ramming national security stuff through whether you want it or not, we're actually going out to the community. We're saying, what do you think? Let's have a look at it. Let's have a look at it. A lot of things are on the table, let's have a look at them, it's not a full gone conclusion. It's not even near that. Like I said, it's not even drafted yet.
AUSTIN:
Ok. Briefly Steve Ciobo,
CIOBO:
Well, just I mean, Bernie is verballing me. If you listen to what I said Steve, I said Nicola Roxon has left the door open to. I mean those were my exact words.
AUSTIN:
Aright, sure.
CIOBO:
I just think that the Attorney General can easily shut this down.
AUSTIN:
I appreciate that. Steve Ciobo is the, I'll get it right Steve Ciobo, my apologies. I've got that 'I' stuck in my brain for some reason. Steve Ciobo, LNP member for Moncrieff, my apologies Steve.
CIOBO:
No, that's fine.
AUSTIN:
And Bernie Ripoll, Bernie is the Federal Labor member for Oxley. Bernie thanks to you as well.
RIPOLL:
Thanks, thank you.