MITCHELL:
Every second Friday we have in the studio the Assistant Treasurer Bill Shorten, he's with me this morning, Bill good morning.
SHORTEN:
Good morning.
MITCHELL:
And the Shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey who is on the phone from Perth I think, Joe good morning.
HOCKEY:
Morning Neil, morning Bill.
SHORTEN:
Morning Joe.
MITCHELL:
What's the time in Perth Joe?
HOCKEY:
6:21am.
MITCHELL:
Terrific.
HOCKEY:
Oh, I've been up since 3am.
MITCHELL:
What have you been doing?
HOCKEY:
Morning TV.
MITCHELL:
What do you think of the time difference for Perth?
HOCKEY:
I'm really excited about it and I'm about to get on a plane to Cairns to do a speech tonight so...
MITCHELL:
Can I ask you both quickly, a 14 year old boy, Australian boy in jail, well in custody in Bali facing charges, should he be brought home Bill Shorten?
SHORTEN:
Oh, listen our hearts go out to his family; I know our consulate and our Foreign Minister are working really hard to sort this out. From the facts that are emerging this little 14 year old, he seems to have been caught up in something that is not of his making but we'll wait to see what happens.
MITCHELL:
Joe Hockey?
HOCKEY:
Oh it's awful isn't it? It's just, you superimpose yourself in that situation, a 14 year old kid walks out of a shop and someone comes up to him according to reports and says "I haven't got any money, I'll sell you this, I haven't eaten for two days", now whether he was a mug or had different intentions or not the bottom line is he's 14 years of age.
MITCHELL:
A lot of people have been saying, I know there's been a big reaction to Sunrise and here as well saying you cop it, you do it, you cop it in a foreign country, it's too young isn't it?
SHORTEN:
Only 14, you can say that... He's travelling with his parents. I imagine if I had kids who, you take them overseas, you turn your back and all or a sudden something like this has happened... Yeah I wouldn't be quick to judge him negatively.
HOCKEY:
Yeah, I'm with you Bill.
MITCHELL:
Ok the Tax Forum gentlemen, Joe Hockey, why didn't you go? Seriously?
HOCKEY:
We weren't invited. Can I be emphatic about this? I don't know where Wayne Swan is getting this "you're invited or how..." We had no invitation, no one rang us to "you're invited, this is where you've got to be at what time", it's the biggest fib I've heard from Wayne Swan over the last few years and that's saying something.
SHORTEN:
Joe, I know you read the newspapers, I know you watch the TV, this Tax Forum was not a surprise party! Like if you were really that focussed you might have said "where's our invitation?" Your office is 300 metres away from the Treasurer, like... Guys you didn't support the Tax Forum...
HOCKEY:
Sorry, sorry, you're confirming we weren't invited.
SHORTEN:
No, no, not at all. What I am saying to you though....
HOCKEY:
Well you're saying we were?
SHORTEN:
No, what I'm saying to you Joe is that if you really cared about going, you probably would have taken some initiative if what you are saying is correct which I don't accept.
HOCKEY:
Do we have to ask ourselves? Do we have to go and gatecrash? Is that was you're saying?
SHORTEN:
Joe seriously, all you guys did, if you look at your media commentary ever since the forum was announced all you did was rubbish it. All you did was rubbish it.
HOCKEY:
What's come out of it?
SHORTEN:
Well hang on, do you agree that all you did was rubbish it? It wasn't a surprise, you know what? Your state Liberal counterparts were there.
HOCKEY:
At last! What a shock. They were invited and they went.
SHORTEN:
What you're telling is that at the next election if we don't ask you to run you're not going to turn up? Come on mate, we're adults. Even a crocodile wouldn't swallow that.
HOCKEY:
Nice work Bill, nice work mate.
MITCHELL:
We'll take a quick call, if you'd like to join the discussion 96 900 693 / 13 13 32,Mark, yes Mark?
Caller (Mark): Yeah, good afternoon, look all this Summit was to me was having a meeting to discuss the next meeting to review the minutes of the previous meeting. Do nothing, the old John Kennedy speech, do something and when you've done something you can say I did. You just achieved nothing; it was just a talk fest.
MITCHELL:
Bill Shorten?
SHORTEN:
Well I was there, I don't agree. First of all it was the first time in some years that we've got a whole range of opinions in the same room at the same time talking about tax policy. Secondly, there were proposals that emerged out of it, if you expected that you'd get everyone together and then someone rushes out and says "we've discovered the meaning of live" or "we've split the atom" well ok, by the high jump bar you're probably going to be disappointed but in the real world of talking about real change, the Treasurer announced that we were increasing the tax-free threshold, $21,000.
HOCKEY:
When? When? When?
SHORTEN:
Well when we can afford to get it done.
MITCHELL:
Yeah but I'm going to buy a Lamborghini when I can afford it but I probably never will.
SHORTEN:
Oh yeah, the truth, you're buying a Lamborghini, the 21K threshold probably doesn't mean much to you but there's over a million people...
MITCHELL:
Oh come on, you've missed the point. There's a promise there to do something one day if we can afford it. I was love a Lamborghini one day, I'll never have one. And even if you do it, 51 cents a day to the average wage earner.
SHORTEN:
Well I'll tell you, currently in Australia the threshold is just over $6,000...
HOCKEY:
No, no that's not right.
SHORTEN:
...We're moving it to $18,000 when we get through our price on Carbon pollution and then we'll be moving it further up the scale. This is good stuff but change doesn't happen overnight and if you want to promise people that things are going to change overnight well then they're probably being misleading.
MITCHELL:
Joe Hockey?
HOCKEY:
Well where do you start? I mean the commitment, the 2007 election Kevin Rudd said we're going to reduce the top marginal tax rate to 40 cents to the dollar, it's an aspiration, we'll do it when we can afford it but more importantly we said we're going to reduce the number of tax thresholds from four to three, nothing happened of course. And now, the Government had absolutely nothing out of this Tax Summit and they say "good news Australia, one day in the future at an unspecified time, we may increase the tax-free threshold." That's what they said, and they said this is a great, some media reported it as a great victory for everyday Australians, what a crock! What a crock! Seriously, 200 people, 2 days, a million dollars and they've promised to have more reviews, more committees, more working groups. It's just a joke.
SHORTEN:
Joe, your cynicism is getting the better of you. Just to go to your first point, we've reduced taxes, and I'll tell you how we've reduced taxes since two thousand....
HOCKEY:
Because we paid for them and announced them in the previous Government.
SHORTEN:
Alright well when you've finished interrupting I'll get on with it. These are facts, what we've done, and you can say that other people did them beforehand, we did it on our shift, we did it on our watch. If you earn $50,000, you are paying $1,750 less now than you would have been when your group were in power. If you're earning $80,000, even with the flood levy which you opposed, you're paying $1,400 less tax than you would have been when you guys were booted out of power.
HOCKEY:
Which we announced in 2007 and we were going further and we wouldn't have had a flood levy, absolutely not, we wouldn't have had it.
SHORTEN:
I love you guys, anything good that we ever do, well that was your idea, anything bad that ever happens, that's just our idea.
MITCHELL:
Let's come back to a principle, Joe Hockey do you pay too much tax? Or is the tax rate right?
HOCKEY:
Yes we do, the carbon tax, the mining tax, absolutely.
MITCHELL:
Alright, Bill Shorten do we pay too much tax? Do we want to reduce the burden?
SHORTEN:
On the mining tax, that's a great tax all the way, I don't see why Joe wants to hand back $10 Billion to mining companies who are making record profits. Generally in terms of taxation, I think that we can do more work to re-address who's paying the taxes.
MITCHELL:
So you mean tax the top, tax the high income earners?
SHORTEN:
No, we'll come to that, but overall I don't think that we're paying too much tax overall in Australia, it's about 21.8% of the Australian economy is taxed when the Libs went out of power...
HOCKEY:
You know what, can we kill this idea?
SHORTEN:
You know what's coming don't you Joe? You just don't like it, you know it's coming...
HOCKEY:
I'll tell you why...
SHORTEN:
Adopt the crash position, you know what's coming Joe.
HOCKEY:
I do know what's coming and I'll tell you why it's false, you say...
SHORTEN:
Let me say it before you say it's false, you're so pavlonianly trained to just react to bad news.
HOCKEY:
I've just heard it so many times before.
MITCHELL:
But hang on, we're the people who are sitting here paying... Let's take all these mining taxes and...
SHORTEN:
The Libs love overtaxing Joe, you know it.
MITCHELL:
We are paying a lot of tax, most people would say they're over taxed, Bill Shorten you're saying they not. Correct?
SHORTEN:
No, what I'm saying is that I think some people are paying too much tax and I think that other parts of the economy are not paying enough tax.
MITCHELL:
Ok, we better take a break; we'll come back with more, 96 900 693 13 13 32.
BREAK
MITCHELL:
Bill Shorten in the studio with me, Joe Hockey in Perth in the middle of the night and we'll take another call, Brian, yes Brian.
CALLER (BRIAN):
Yeah good morning boys. I've got a question for Bill Shorten. You've just spent a million dollars on this wonderful new talk fest, where you've come out with the idea that at some undetermined point in the future you might increase the tax free threshold if you can afford it. When are you going to get off your fundamental orifices and do something about the Ken Henry tax review that you'd had in just the last 18 months?
SHORTEN:
Brian, you probably mightn't know this but of the Ken Henry report we've actually implemented 32 of the recommendations from that already and just to go back to your understanding of what happened at the forum, first of all there was lots of discussion about lots of ideas and before you actually do something you do actually have to get people in the room, smart people from different points of view and get people in the room and we're also proposing for instance that a groups put together pretty quickly to look at what tax relief can be given to businesses who are not in the fast lane of the Australian economies so there's plenty going on. We spoke about a new tax advisory board to get business to be able to work better with the tax office on their rulings, a lot more happening in the fine print that I think the question indicates.
MITCHELL:
I'd like to get to that jobs issue in a moment but could I ask you first, is Graham Richardson right? Phones calls are being made to support Kevin Rudd?
SHORTEN:
Oh not to me so I don't know.
MITCHELL:
You haven't had any calls?
SHORTEN:
No
MITCHELL:
You must have heard if it's happening?
SHORTEN:
I support Julia Gillard, everyone knows that.
MITCHELL:
Yeah but you must know whether this organising is going on.
SHORTEN:
I think the leadership stories are a beat up.
MITCHELL:
A beat up?
SHORTEN:
Yep
MITCHELL:
Not happening?
SHORTEN:
Not happening
MITCHELL:
Julia Gillard's leadership is secure?
SHORTEN:
Yep.
MITCHELL:
She'd be more likely to fly to Mars then no longer be Prime Minister?
SHORTEN:
Oh Neil, I know each time we speak you do return to this topic and I keep giving you the same answer so nothing of my answer is going to change.
MITCHELL:
No, fair enough, but it has taken the step hasn't it with Graham Richardson naming people who are actively organising against her. Do you believe that is correct?
SHORTEN:
I don't think there is active organising.
MITCHELL:
No phone calls being made?
SHORTEN:
No I don't believe that.
MITCHELL:
Richo is wrong?
SHORTEN:
Oh Richo is entitled to his opinion but I know what I see.
MITCHELL:
Haven't called you Joe Hockey have they?
HOCKEY:
I've got nothing to say really.
MITCHELL:
I beg your pardon? You've got nothing to say?
HOCKEY:
Mmm.
MITCHELL:
Why?
HOCKEY:
Well because this is a matter for the Labor party. I just wish they'd run the country you know, instead of going at war with themselves.
SHORTEN:
We are Joe. Well talking of warring, are you on Jamie Brigg's side when he says he wants to slap a GST on food?
HOCKEY:
He didn't say that.
SHORTEN:
Okay.
MITCHELL:
Who is Jamie Briggs?
HOCKEY:
Well Bill raised it.
SHORTEN:
If you've forgotten who he is, he's a Liberal back bencher Joe and he came out on Adelaide radio and raised the issue of putting a GST on food. If you want to talk about acting or not acting on tax Joe do you support that?
HOCKEY:
No, it's not our policy Bill.
SHORTEN:
Okay.
MITCHELL:
That will never happen under your Government?
HOCKEY:
Well we're not in Government.
MITCHELL:
No, but when you're in Government.
SHORTEN:
Well, if you're in Government.
HOCKEY:
Well no, it's not going to happen, it's not our policy.
MITCHELL:
Bill Shorten, do you want to licence journalists?
SHORTEN:
No.
MITCHELL:
Bob Brown does.
SHORTEN:
Oh well (laughs).
MITCHELL:
Well, that worries me because Bob gets what Bob wants.
SHORTEN:
No, no, listen Bob Brown has also got friends who wear Koala suits and bang buckets in the main streets for donations.
HOCKEY:
That's quite funny
SHORTEN:
Well I appreciate that.
MITCHELL:
Well there goes the minority Government.
SHORTEN:
No, no, let's get something straight here, for most years in the Senate the Government of the day has had to deal with minority parties. The Liberals made an art form of dealing with the Democrats but they had some unusual views in the Democrats, that doesn't mean I would say that John Howard was a Democrat, so... I don't mean undemocratic either, sorry Joe, that was provocative, I mean a Democrat, big D Democrat.
MITCHELL:
So, Bob Brown is going to get his media inquiry but he's not going get licences.
SHORTEN:
No, I think you'll find that with the media inquiry, as I understand what Bob Brown wanted wasn't what was in the inquiry.
MITCHELL:
Okay, let's talk about something more important, jobs. Joe Hockey, will you be going to the Jobs Forum?
HOCKEY:
Well, that was yesterday wasn't it?
MITCHELL:
I know, did you go?
HOCKEY:
No mate, I was up in the Pilbara looking at the jobs.
MITCHELL:
Okay, did you have representation there?
HOCKEY:
No we weren't asked either as far as I'm aware.
MITCHELL:
Why didn't you ask him, Bill Shorten?
SHORTEN:
I don't know if they were asked or not asked but yet again it's in Parliament House. These guys have got white cars and planes which fly them there, they know where Parliament House is.
HOCKEY:
No Bill you can't get out of these things mate. I mean the bottom line is the Government is trying to rebuild its credibility and its having these forums and trying to look as though it's doing something and at the end of the day it doesn't want the opposition there, it has everyone else and that's fine, that's the way you want to run the country.
MITCHELL:
But people are worried about their jobs.
SHORTEN:
Yeah, jobs are a real issue and let me tell you what came out of it. There's two or three key points, one is we have these things called, the Federal Government, the Labor Government has as Australian Industry Participation Plan and what it means is that when the Federal Government directly procures items and programs we have to demonstrate that we've actively engaged Australian industry. What happened yesterday is that the Prime Minister has said that anything which gets more than $20 Million worth of Federal Government money and it's not just direct expenditure but programs for infrastructure, investment in the private sector and elsewhere, as soon as there's $20 Million of commonwealth tax payers money there's got to be an Australian industry plan where the project developer has to demonstrate that they've engaged with Australian industry. The second big thing which came out of it was there's been a proposition around for quite a while where there's a reduction for special projects in the team on imported... a reduction on the import tariff of 5%. Traditionally this has been about attracting capital to projects but now what we're saying is if you want to get that reduction you've got to demonstrate that you've engaged with Australian Industry.
MITCHELL:
Good idea, Joe Hockey?
HOCKEY:
Well the sentiment is right but you know what, I've looked at the detail and its plans, workshops, publications on websites, ongoing considerations, there's nothing substantive and the interesting thing is Neil, you know I was in the Pilbara for the last two days, I asked all of the major guys up there how much Australian participation and they say we already provide all this information to the Western Australian Government and most of the mines were 70-75% Australian involvement participation and they have to provide all that information to the Western Australian Government and what wasn't manufactured in Australia were things like locomotives, which we don't obviously make and in the case of the huge Pluto project which I walked around, the fabrication and work they said was manufactured in Thailand and brought out in...
MITCHELL:
So what you're saying is it's not necessary?
HOCKEY:
What's that?
MITCHELL:
What the Government is doing, you're saying it's not necessary?
HOCKEY:
Well it's just duplication as far as I can see, because the Western Australian Government already collects the information.
SHORTEN:
Well no, sorry but I don't dispute that you had conversations with senior mine managers who told you that they're doing everything correct...
HOCKEY:
No, no, no, no they give that information, they have to report it already to the Western Australian Government.
SHORTEN:
I was just going off what you said, okay so when you spoke to the mine management in the Pilbara, Joe Hockey is there for the day, fantastic...
HOCKEY:
Two days.
SHORTEN:
Two days, you said is there a lot of Australian made? And they've said yep. Well what I'd suggest to you, I spent 14 years as a union organiser including in the hydrocarbons industry and not just two days and what I saw was the increasing trend throughout Australia for steel fabrication and for a whole lot of work to be done overseas. I agree with you that some big capital items are built overseas and it's unfair to just say "they can't be built here". This is real stuff we've changed and for you to just dismiss it as a plan, the Australia Industry Group, the Australia Commerce Industry, the Business Council of Australia, the Australian Steel Group...
HOCKEY:
And they all support it I'm sure.
SHORTEN:
Yeah they do.
HOCKEY:
You know why they'd support it? Because it doesn't mandate any action that's why they support it, because they know they're still going to go out and buy all that produce...
SHORTEN:
So does the AWU and the Metal Works Union, my observation is that why is it when a third party agrees with the Government you dismiss them?
HOCKEY:
Have a look at the facts. I'm just saying have a look at the facts.
SHORTEN:
Why do you know so much more than the Business Council of Australia and the AWU and the Australian Steel Group and ACCI? It's marvellous...
MITCHELL:
Righto, two very quick issues. Hospitals big issue in Victoria, I was talking to an emergency doctor yesterday he said he'd seen people die, he sees people suffer everyday because there is not enough recourses in the system, Box Hill is cutting back surgery, Tasmania has cut back elective surgery, the Austin hospital has a crisis on its hands, we've been talking about this for so long, where does the buck stop now Bill Shorten, is it still stop with Julia Gillard or not?
SHORTEN:
Well, the Federal Government both under Kevin Rudd and under Julia Gillard moved into more funding into the hospital system, we're putting in more money than ever before.
MITCHELL:
So why isn't it working?
SHORTEN:
Well because I suspect that the problems there and the role of the state funding is still under pressure.
MITCHELL:
So the state Government's are mucking it up are they?
SHORTEN:
Well I'm more concerned with getting it right than who you blame. But I'm not dismissing your point.
MITCHELL:
Joe Hockey?
HOCKEY:
Well the Federal Government has taken over 50% or the hospital system. This was the big reform, sorry mate you can't walk away from it any more, you guys took over 50% of them.
SHORTEN:
Joe I'm actually saying that what the Fed's are doing is good, we are putting more money in, your comment recognizes that, you certainly didn't do it when you guys were in power.
MITCHELL:
But it's not right yet.
SHORTEN:
But the point is there's clearly still lots of problems in the hospital system. I will say one thing about staff, I recently had to go to the children's hospital in Victoria, I tell you the staff are doing the best they can.
MITCHELL:
I certainly agree with that.
HOCKEY:
I totally agree with that.
MITCHELL:
The other thing, Ted Baillieu is announcing tougher laws on Government contracts at 10 oclock where unions have to follow the law, do you accept that the situation should be no ticket? That even a non-union worker can get a job in Victoria.
SHORTEN:
Well first of all the unions do follow the law.
MITCHELL:
The construction unions? You can get a job on a city site unless you're in the building union.
SHORTEN:
No I believe that unions do follow the law, I also believe that good sensible trade unionism makes workplaces safer and lifts pay rates. Whenever we get into a discussion about Liberal bashing of unions, whatever Ted Baillieu is doing, the point about it is that there's so much good that unions do that never gets spoken about.
MITCHELL:
Alright, Joe Hockey, thankyou.
HOCKEY:
Great pleasure guys.
MITCHELL:
Alright Joe, go and have breakfast
SHORTEN:
Have a nice breakfast, you've earned it.
HOCKEY:
See you in Canberra.
SHORTEN:
I'll invite you to my office Joe, we'll have a catch-up.
MITCHELL:
Joe Hockey, the Shadow Treasurer, Bill Shorten... You're not going out to MacDonald's are you in Hawthorn? Did you see that mess out there?
SHORTEN:
I reckon there's two things wrong with that, one is put in some closed circuit cameras on the Maccas because that'll stop people, and then you can put in on a litterers YouTube site, the other thing though, have you ever noticed that councils are getting rid of bins, it's very hard to find a bin, so perhaps if they put a few more bins in.
MITCHELL:
They don't like collecting them that's why.
SHORTEN:
Well I reckon if you had a few more bins it'd be a bit easier to put the rubbish in them.
MITCHELL:
Have you ever been Mayor of anywhere?
SHORTEN:
No.
MITCHELL:
Thank you for coming in, Bill Shorten.