SUBJECTS: 2009 Budget, tobacco tax, private health insurance, NRL sex scandal
LEIGH SALES:
The Government promised us a tough and painful Budget, but after Tuesday night, many are thinking it must've been talking about next year. Malcolm Turnbull found just one part of Treasurer Wayne Swan's Budget to oppose, yet already the early election speculation is ramping up. Joining us tonight in Sydney is Assistant Treasurer Chris Bowen, and from Brisbane Shadow Small Business Minister Steve Ciobo.
Welcome to both of you.
CHRIS BOWEN:
Good evening.
STEVEN CIOBO:
Thanks, Leigh.
SALES:
Steve Ciobo, in an ideal world, would every Australian have health insurance?
CIOBO:
Look, the key point, Leigh, that Malcolm was making today and that you're questioning about was our response to this move by the Rudd Labor Government to strip away private health insurance from so many Australians. We're greatly concerned that there's 11 million Australians out there that have private health insurance, and as a direct result of this Government's decision, as a direct result of their reckless spending, we're now seeing 1.7 million Australians in a position where they're going to be paying more for their private health insurance, being pushed off private health insurance 'cause it's no longer affordable under the Rudd Labor Government and putting pressure back on the public system.
SALES:
What's the ideal world look like that the Coalition's envisaging where every Australian has private health insurance?
CIOBO:
I think the ideal world that Malcolm's talking about, Leigh, is a recognition that both the public systems and private systems are bedrocks of obviously Australia's health system. We need both to be sustainable, we need both to be strong. And you achieve that through a balance of private and public.
Now Labor cannot escape the fact that as a result of their reckless spending, as a result of this massive Budget deficit, they've got in their firing line, basically, 11 million Australians with private health insurance who are now going to face higher premiums, many of them, millions of them, will probably drop off the private health system into the public system. And if people think they're waiting a long time now for elective surgery, if they think they've got to line up at hospitals in emergency rooms now, it's just going to be so much worse as a direct result of this Government's economic mismanagement.
SALES:
Chris Bowen?
BOWEN:
Oh, well, look, the Liberal Party's engaging in a stunt and a scare campaign. I mean, we've said all along that these are tough times and that everybody will need to make a contribution. And the changes to the private health insurance rebate scheme are part of everybody making a contribution. Now, Mr Turnbull has been banging on for months about debt and deficit, and last night he walked into the Chamber and proposed an alternative Budget which would have exactly the same deficit, if not higher, if not higher. And the best he could do is propose a stunt of a swap of one savings measure for another. He just can't be taken seriously.
SALES:
I will be talking about debt a little bit later, but I'd like to stick with this private health insurance issue for now. Malcolm Turnbull's proposed imposing a higher tobacco tax to cover the cost of keeping the private health insurance rebate, which of course was one of your election promises. That's a reasonable enough idea, isn't it?
BOWEN:
No, it's not; it's just a stunt. Look, last year - at this time last year, Brendan Nelson was saying, "Let's reduce the tax on petrol by five cents a litre." I mean that's the amount of thought that they put into these schemes. Now, we've had on the table for a long time now a sensible increase in the alcopops tax. The Liberal Party has said, "Oh, you can't do that, it's just a revenue - net revenue raiser. That would be outrageous." They've used those words. Now, as part of a suite of anti-binge drinking measures, we've had a tax on the table as one component. Now, the Liberal Party has opposed that.
Now, last night they walk in and say, "Let's have a revenue-raising cigarette tax." They just can't be taken seriously. If they want to be taken seriously they should first support all our savings measures, support the alcopops measure, which is a sensible, well-measured health measure and then people might start to take them seriously on their proposals.
SALES:
Steve Ciobo, is there hypocrisy in your position, as Chris Bowen's saying?
CIOBO:
Not at all, Leigh. And I've gotta say Chris might be good with a line like that, but let's be clear about what's going on. I mean, we have the Labor Party saying that the Liberal Party is not in a position where we're not supporting Labor's savings measures. I mean, let's be clear about the actual state of play here. We've got, under the Rudd Labor Government $188 billion of debt that's build up in 18 months. We've got a Budget deficit of some $58 billion. What concerns us, Leigh, is this: they say, "Oh, this is a tough Budget. Everyone's got to pay a price." The savings measures are about $16 billion against Government expenditure of $1.2 trillion - $1.2 trillion. So there's no hard decisions being taken by the Rudd Labor Government. Now let's look at alcopops tax. Chris Bowen says, "Oh, well, we need to support that." Well you know what? This Government needs to get serious about what it's doing. Is it a health measure, or is it a Government revenue-raising measure? We've got no clarity from the Government about that. When it suits them, it's a binge drinking measure, when it doesn't suit them, it's a revenue-raising measure. What we know though is that as a result of this tax increase, people have substituted other brands, they've gone to beer, they've gone to bottled spirits and that's very different to what we're proposing, which is not a particular increase on tax on one tobacco product, but rather an increase in the excise across the whole board.
SALES:
Okay, let me throw out a possible compromise here. Chris Bowen, first to you. If the Coalition passes your alcopops tax, then you give the green light to the tobacco tax idea and keep the private health insurance rebate, which allows you to keep an election promise?
BOWEN:
No, look, let's look at the two issues on their policy merits. Now on alcopops, the previous government gave alcopops a tax concession, taxed them at rates less than other forms of alcohol and we've seen the drinking of alcopops go like that, through the roof. And not only the health experts; you talk to any high school principal in the country, like I talk to the high school principals in my electorate, and I'm sure Steve does in his, they'll tell you alcopops are a big part of the problem with binge drinking. So why should they receive ...
SALES:
Okay, but if you want to get your measure through, you're going to have to compromise and I'm throwing out that option to you.
BOWEN:
No, no, but I just want to talk about the policy merits of both measures for a second, because it is important. So, you have a concessional tax on alcopops which we want to fix, and then you come to cigarettes. Now cigarettes are already very heavily taxed. About half the cost of a pack of cigarettes is tax. Now, we accept, we agree, we've been saying for a long time: there can be health benefits of tax increases. The Liberal Party's laughed at that and said, "No, no, no, if you increase taxes it's always revenue-raising."
We say if it's part of a well thought-out, well considered health measure which involves other steps as well, then they can play a role. Now, the Henry review is looking at all taxation and of course they'll also look at tobacco taxation. But the two issues have some similarity in that if you are going to argue that there can be health benefits from tax increases, then you have to be fair dinkum about it and you have to fix the glaring anomaly first - the glaring anomaly of a concession for alcopops.
SALES:
Steve Ciobo?
CIOBO: Well, Chris, you know, if you're talking to school principals the same as I am, you'd know what they're saying now is as a result of this complete catastrophe that Labor's putting forward as just a tax on alcopops, that people have substituted; they've substituted to beer, they've substituted to bottled spirits. So let's not pretend this is an anti-binge drinking measure. It's not. This was a tax grab by the Government. They should just 'fess up and they should just come clean.
BOWEN:
Well, that's what you've just done.
CIOBO:
And then - we'll, that's what we're doing with respect to cigarettes. We've made it very clear that it's a savings measure.
BOWEN:
So it's not a health measure? It's not a health measure now?
CIOBO:
The reason we're doing it is because as a result of your Labor Government, as a result of your reckless spending - it's two things: it's a health measure and a spending - and a revenue measure. Because, Chris, your Government's reckless spending has got this country absolutely mired in debt. It is going to take decades, decades for us to pay this off.
SALES:
Let me pick you up on - let me pick up on that point about the debt. Chris Bowen, did Wayne Swan imagine that by not mentioning the $58 billion debt that just we'd forget all about it?
BOWEN:
No, no, look, he gave a Budget speech and he ran through the issues. And I'm told - I haven't checked this - but I'm told that it's not unprecedented for the Budget bottom line figure not to be in the actual speech. But, look, the situation is this: around the world we are seeing increasing deficits and debts from all governments. Now, we've kept the deficit in Australia at under 5 per cent of GDP.
SALES:
Even so, it's still your big Achilles' heel, isn't it?
BOWEN:
But the average around the developed world this year is 9 per cent; so we're about half. So, all this talk from Steve and his colleagues that ...
CIOBO:
What were we before, Chris? What were we before, Chris?
BOWEN:
... that the debt is insurmountable. Malcolm Turnbull using his normal flowery language about mountains of debt, unimaginable debt. Well it would be unimaginable in the United States because it would be unimaginably low. Same in the United Kingdom and elsewhere.
SALES:
But even if it is half the size of in other countries, given that Labor has struggled for many years being attacked for being poor economic managers, this is your big Achilles heel, is it not?
BOWEN:
Well, there's no doubt the Liberal Party will continue to run their scare campaign. That's fine. That's what Opposition's do. Good luck to them. We'll just get on with the job. Now what would be the irresponsible thing to do here? The irresponsible thing to do would be to say, "We'll keep - we'll stay in surplus, we'll increase taxes, we'll reduce spending." Unemployment goes up and another lost generation of unemployed. We're not going to sit by and let that happen. A responsible, well thought-out, well targeted stimulus package, and dealing with and acknowledging the massive write-down in our tax revenues, which every government around the world is going through and we're no different.
SALES:
Steve Ciobo, there's been a lot of speculation this week that the Rudd Government's positioning itself to call an early election. That would be the Coalition's worst nightmare, wouldn't it?
CIOBO:
Not at all. We're not afraid of going to a poll on this. I mean, ...
SALES:
Doesn't worry you that you're currently 10 points behind and that Malcolm Turnbull, I think, is about 30 percentage points behind in his approval as preferred Prime Minister?
CIOBO:
Look, polls come and go. I mean, they are what they are. As the cliché in politics is, the only poll that matters is the poll on the day. If Kevin Rudd wants to go to an early election because he's so terrified that the Australian people are quickly cottoning on to the damage this Government is doing to our economy, then so be it. That's a fight we're ready to have and that's a message we're very keen to have that conversation with the Australian people. But, Leigh, let's just go back to one thing that Chris said. He was talking about, "Oh, well, we need to do this, we need to do that." I've got one message for Chris Bowen and this Labor Government: reduce your spending. That's what needs to happen. This Government has racked up $124 billion of new spending in 18 months. That's $225 million a day of new spending. That's what they need to do. They need to stop spending, stop being Santa Claus, stop trying to pretend that Australia was in the same condition as the rest of the world when they were elected, because we weren't. Australia was the miracle economy.
SALES:
Okay, briefly.
BOWEN:
Can I respond to that? I mean, Steve says, "Stop your spending." Well, Malcolm Turnbull had the chance last night to put up his alternative, to put up his savings, his cuts.
CIOBO:
Chris, you're in Government. You're in Government; take responsibility.
BOWEN:
No, well he - and you're the alternative government. If you're going to say, "Cut spending," tell us where you'd cut it. And the second point is this , Leigh ...
CIOBO:
Sure! Happy to.
BOWEN:
Well, Malcolm Turnbull had a half an hour last night and all we had was two committees. That was his plan. But the second point, just briefly, is this: the Opposition, it's true, said, "Well, we wouldn't spend the $900 on payments to families."
They said they wouldn't do that. What did they say they'd do? Tax cuts - permanent tax cuts. Julie Bishop, the deputy leader of the Opposition said "broad and sweeping tax cuts". What does that mean? It means a permanent drag on the budget deficit. We went for the payments to families ...
CIOBO:
So are you opposed to tax cuts, Chris?
BOWEN:
No, well we went for the payments to families because they're temporary.
SALES:
Okay.
BOWEN:
They're in one year and then they leave. Now if you have permanent, broad and sweeping tax cuts, you would have a much bigger deficit.
SALES:
Well, there is an argument though that people tend to spend tax cuts but save handouts.
Now, the Federal Budget was obviously one of the very big news stories of the week; the other was the Matthew Johns affair and I want to talk a little bit about that. Steve Ciobo, what do you make of that incident and what impact do you think it has on rugby league?
CIOBO:
Well, unfortunately, I mean, it seems to be predominant in rugby league, but there's no doubt and we've seen some evidence today that some of these attitudes unfortunately exist across different sporting codes. I mean, there's no doubt, Leigh that we need to address this problem. You know, as painful as it often is to bring these things out into the public spotlight, that needs to happen, because if we're ever going to change cultures, if we're ever going to reinforce that women aren't objects and that we need to have respect for women, if we're going to change the culture involved with not only rugby league but some other forms of sport, then we need to bring these things out in the open and we also need to work out a strategy going forward, one that will ensure that do get that change in attitude.
SALES:
Chris Bowen, what did you make of the revelations this week?
BOWEN:
Well, look, I thought there were a couple of points here, and I thought the most telling line from this was from Matthew Johns' wife in that interview where she said, "I wouldn't want it to happen to my daughter." And I think every parent and everybody in Australia was sitting at home nodding. This was a stomach-churning incident and it's just terrible for the woman involved. And also for the messages it sends.
Now, sports players, rugby league players are important role models for young men in particular and what we've seen and what we're continuing to see is just the wrong sort of role model. And the really frustrating thing is that there are some really good, great role models in football and all codes of football. Take rugby league: we've got Hazem el Masri playing his 300th game tonight. He's a wonderful story of a Lebanese migrant, a Muslim who's made a great contribution, taken education and made it work for himself. From my neck of the woods, Corey Payne is a great young man who, again, is combining a rugby league career with studying for his Masters of Commerce and really sending a message to young kids to take the best out of education and really make it work for yourself. So there is some really good role models. And it's frustrating that those role models are being overshadowed by these terrible, stomach-churning affairs that appear to keep happening. And I don't know what the answer is. I'm not expert on sports administration.
I agree with Steve: I think rugby league has to fix it and I know they're trying. I mean, from the senior levels, David Gallop, all their intentions are very good, but the game is in real peril.
SALES:
Steve Ciobo, do you think that the other participants should out themselves?
CIOBO:
Absolutely. I mean, there's no reason why any one person or two people should take the rap for this. I mean, this is something where we need to change the culture, and I think the very best way we could start with this particular incident would be for those that were there to step forward and say, "I'm sorry." Apologise.
SALES:
But why would they, though, given what they've now observed happen to Matthew Johns' career and reputation?
CIOBO:
Because I think, Leigh, this is about people, you know, showing some humanity. This is about people showing some empathy and some compassion. Those men that were in that room that evening, especially if it's non-consensual, need to have the backbone to stand up, admit what they've done wrong and face the consequences. That's one way that they could undo some of the damage that they've done.
SALES:
Very briefly, Chris Bowen, do you think that those other participants should out themselves?
BOWEN:
Oh, absolutely. I mean, until they admit that there's a problem, then we're not going to progress this issue. And I think it would, at the end of the day, be the right thing for them to do, to enable them to deal with the issue and it would certainly be the best thing for all involved, including the game.
SALES:
The public reaction has been a little bit split - quite a lot split, actually. Do you have any sympathy for Matthew Johns?
BOWEN:
No. Only to the extent that he has at least admitted that he's done the wrong thing and he appears to be contrite about it. But, look, this is a stomach-churning incident and while he appears to be getting the heat, as you say, and the others are going scot free, that's a legitimate point to make. But if there's any sympathy to be given around, I don't think the footballers involved are the people to get it in this particular instance.
SALES:
Okay, gentlemen, thank you very much. Chris Bowen, Steve Ciobo, thank you very much.
BOWEN:
Great pleasure.
CIOBO:
Thanks, Leigh.