SUBJECTS: Out of use bowsers, Petrol issues
BYNER:
I would suggest that if the Government wants to be seen to be serious about fuel pricing it needs a legislative framework that protects the public and officers that vigorously enforce compliance. Well let's talk to the Minister assisting the Treasurer, who is also responsible for the ACCC, Chris Bowen.
Chris, thanks for being available today.
BOWEN:
Pleasure Leon.
BYNER:
We have documented proof that there are a number of sights that have been doing the same thing as the servo in Sydney for which you guys got an apology. What is your reaction to this?
BOWEN:
Well Leon, anybody with evidence of this sort of behaviour should contact the ACCC and the Petrol Commissioner as soon as possible, so that they can be investigated. Of course we have thousands of petrol stations across the country and the Petrol Commissioner and the ACCC rely on that sort of public feedback to let them know where they should be investigating.
These allegations come up from time to time, and they're very serious and they're investigated fully. We do find often there is, in fairness, a reasonable and legitimate reason. Often, of course, petrol stations - Tuesdays being the cheapest day - run out more often, and that often explains it.
With the increased powers the Petrol Commissioner has, that the new Government gave him after we were elected last December. The Petrol Commissioner has the power now for example to go in and say 'well, you say that bowsers empty, I want to see your delivery dockets thank you very much'. If they had a delivery the night before, well it is pretty clear that wouldn't be a true indication of the situation. If it's been some time since they had a delivery, and it's been a busy period, then that would indicate that perhaps the browser is empty.
So, the important thing is, if people see this happening, and they have reason to suspect that its not a legitimate thing, please let the ACCC know: 1300 302 502, and that way the investigation can proceed quickly. The other point is its very hard for the Petrol Commissioner to investigate properly when we hear about the allegations three or four weeks later. It is much easier if we hear about it earlier.
BYNER:
The NRMA were also very vocal last week, suggesting the very thing that I have said to you this morning, and in fact I got it through to your people a few days ago that this was the likely reality because we getting emails and faxes and information where the sites were actually being named, even our own political commentator John Hepworth gave us a site that does it on a regular basis.
My question is, why were we so quick to accept an apology without any kind of investigation?
BOWEN:
Well in fairness Leon, that's not what happened. Coles indicated that it was a security concern. The Petrol Commissioner made that public and indicated that the preliminary indication from Coles was that this was a security concern because those particular bowsers out of the line of sight of the console operator.
Now Coles says those bowsers were closed on many nights, some customers have said they are only closed Tuesday nights. So there is a bit to go in that investigation.
So it is not accurate to say, with respect, that the Petrol Commissioner has cleared them. But what the Petrol Commissioner did, in the heat of public comment, was come out and say 'look preliminary indications are that there may be a legitimate security concern, but we have a bit to go'.
It is not accurate to say they said sorry, and that's all fine. Now it may end up that this is the result, but what the Petrol Commissioner did was give a preliminary indication of what the situation might be.
BYNER:
Is it against the law to shut a petrol pump if it's still got fuel?
BOWEN:
The Trade Practice Act requires all business to behave honestly.
BYNER:
That's broad though isn't it?
BOWEN:
Well, not to mislead or deceive their customers. Now, this is something that would need to be tested of course but if a petrol station says 'sorry that tank is empty' - and the tank is not empty - then there is a very arguable case that this is misleading or deceptive.
It is not an open and shut case, but clearly it would be regarded as effectively misleading or deceptive. That's the situation in regards the to law, there are substantial penalties for misleading or deceptive conduct; we're having a look at those penalties at the moment and seeing whether there is other things that we can be doing and also the ACCC can take action to ensure it doesn't continue by seeking injunctions etc.
BYNER:
Can I put this to you – I'll re- broadcast that ACCC number – whilst you rely on the public to let the ACCC or authorities know, surely I mean just as we have on the road, officers of the police in every state that look out for bad driving , inattentive driving, driving under the influence, all those things.
Where are the compliance officers to make sure, surely there has got to be some kind of enforcement over and above helping you guys via the public?
BOWEN:
Well there is, but I simply make the point there is around 6000 service stations in the country, if you rely on the ACCC to be constantly monitoring them all, all the time, it is not going to be effective. It's much more efficient if people see a problem they let the ACCC know immediately.
So, for example, when we have FuelWatch - if that is passed by the Senate, which is a very important reform – there will be substantial compliance operations to go with that. But again we will rely on public feedback to say 'well hang on this service station said they would charge $1.40, their charging a $1.50'. It's much simpler and easier if people let the ACCC know that, and we can get onto it straight away, rather than hoping. No number of inspectors could cover every service station in the country effectively.
BYNER:
So, lets say we gave to you some of the emails we got naming the sites, the times and so on – what could you do?
BOWEN:
Well the Petrol Commissioner would go out - and as I say he has the power - if you've got the dates where bowsers were alleged to be empty, he has the power to seek delivery dockets. State authorities often have the power to dip tanks if we know about it straight away. If there is an allegation a bowser is empty, when really it has fuel in it, state authorities have the power to go out and check. The state and federal authorities work very closely together.
Now there are occasions Leon, again we have to be careful Leon, there are occasions where it is bad practice to let a tank run absolutely and completely dry. What sometimes service stations do is close a tank, whether it is on any day of the week, and there may still be a little petrol in it, so some cars could fill up, but not enough to keep it servicing because if tanks completely dry out you can have all sorts of technical problems with the tanks so it's good practice, just like in a car not to let your car to run completely empty, not to allow a tank to run completely empty.
But all these things can be investigated, and as I say, and thank you for re-broadcasting the number, 1300 302 502. The sooner the ACCC knows about it, the sooner an effective investigation can take place.
BYNER:
Stay on the line Minister, we have Nick Xenophon, Senator elect – Nick good morning, what's your take on this?
XENOPHON:
Leon, I've been in the job for two weeks now, you're selling me short!
BYNER:
Well, you're elected and you're now a senator.
XENOPHON:
That's right. Look Leon, I'm encouraged, I haven't met Chris Bowen yet and I am looking forward to meeting him. What's clear is the whole issue of petrol pricing, the way fuel companies operate, is on the agenda.
I don't know all the facts in terms of the Petrol Commissioner's actions, although I note there has been some concerns. My plea to the Government, and something I want to take up with the Government, is to look at the big picture. And what we found at a parliamentary inquiry here in South Australia - a state inquiry a number of years ago - is that the fuel companies do have enormous power at the wholesale level, that I think we need to shake up the way the oil companies operate their buy sell arrangements to give consumers more power that way. And I think there is a whole range of things we can do in conjunction with what the Government or the Petrol Commissioner is doing to give this real teeth, and give consumers some relief from petrol prices.
BYNER:
So are you suggesting that you'll be nudging the Minister so to speak? You want tighter controls, or you want more compliance?
XENOPHON:
I am suggesting that I want to work cooperatively with the Minister because I think there is a lot of scope here to give consumers more of a say, empower them, and obviously in terms of the apology that was accepted by the Petrol Commissioner we need to look into that.
But what is encouraging is that I think there is now a new scrutiny about the whole issue of petrol pricing in the country that we didn't have before. And I'm all for opening up this debate, because the sooner we do, the sooner I think consumers will know where they stand and that could well give them some relief.
BYNER:
All right, so Minister the point I make to you is that the NRMA, the peak motoring body in New South Wales, reckons that they have information suggesting that the apology was probably a little hollow – has any of this evidence been tested and investigated?
BOWEN:
As I say Leon, this investigation is ongoing, and it's again, one of the problems we have is that we are talking retrospectively - you know some consumers have said 'those tanks were closed the other night' the retailer says that's not necessarily the case. And we are talking about in some cases three or four weeks ago – so it is hard.
BYNER:
So really what you're going to need from the public is for them to take pictures, with dates on them.
BOWEN:
Well, not necessarily, that might be helpful, but not necessarily. As I say, the quicker we can hear information, the more effective the investigation can be.
Can I just say in response to Nick Xenophon, and I welcome his comments. I think that we are going to catch up in a week or two when I am in Adelaide. I agree with him completely, one of the things the ACCC found was that the buy-sell arrangements which is where oil companies buy and sell fuel from each other in different cities are potentially anti-competitive. We have a review going on to see what we can do about that in particular.
We have found that the petrol market is not as competitive as it could be, that's the whole point of the petrol inquiry, that's the whole point of FuelWatch, that's the whole point of the buy-sell arrangements, it's the whole point of trying to get more import refining capacity.
There is no, as I often say, there is no one answer but, put all these solutions together and you can be making progress. And I think Nick Xenophon and the Government and I are all on the same page on that.
BYNER:
All right, well Chris Bowen thank you for joining us today - the Minister for the ACCC and Assistant Treasurer – and also Nick Xenophon.