SUBJECTS: Emissions Trading Scheme, World Youth Day
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
On a day filled with biblical imagery, here's one more for you: could the Government's policies on emissions trading become a crown of thorns for Prime Minister Kevin Rudd?
Australia's response to climate change is shaping up as the biggest, most complex policy reform in generations and the political pain is just beginning for the Federal Government.
To discuss the week in politics, I'm joined now by the Assistant Treasurer Chris Bowen and by the Shadow Minister for Families and Community Services Tony Abbott, and they're both here with me in our Sydney studio.
Gentlemen, welcome to Lateline.
TONY ABBOTT:
G'day, Virginia.
CHRIS BOWEN:
Good evening.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Chris Bowen, to start with you, the hard sell of your emissions trading policy just got a little harder today because Woodside Petroleum is saying that $60 billion of potential investments in their liquid natural gas investments - this could be threatened by your emissions trading scheme. They're saying it's going to impact on them very heavily. How will you get them back on side?
CHRIS BOWEN:
Well, I know that Don Voelte said that he booked a plane ticket to Canberra to talk about it.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
He's booked several tickets to Canberra!
CHRIS BOWEN:
And that's the good thing and that's what the green paper process is all about: having these discussions.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
What, sectional interests and influence peddling?
CHRIS BOWEN:
No, no, but we've made it clear in the green paper that for energy intensive, trade exposed industries, we need to provide some transitional assistance. Now, there's questions about whether they'll be entitled to that assistance. And I'd make the point that the more people who are open to that sort of assistance, the more burden there is on other parts of the economy. So, we need to get this balance right.
This green paper is all about getting the information out in the public, allowing that sort of discussion and debate, and we'll have a discussion with Woodside as we will with various other players in the industry. But we do need to provide transitional assistance to trade exposed industries. There's no point in having industries move offshore if emissions don't reduce at all. That's what this is all about. We need to have a discussion with Woodside and we will.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Tony Abbott, what should the discussion - what form should it take?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, look, that's for Woodside and the Government, but the interesting thing about what Chris is saying is he's trying to have you believe that you can have an emissions trading system and no prices will go up. It's an emissions trading system that won't damage anyone. Well, you can't have a system that limits our carbon emissions without increasing prices, and that's going to hurt.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Well, yeah, but the Government's admitted that already. I mean, the elements of the system will hurt. They'll have to hurt. If your side was in Government and managed to agree on some sort of policy, you'd have in place a system that would hurt to some extent. Or are you saying that everyone could be cushioned and that somehow we could lower emissions?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, no. Well, no, I'm not. I mean, these are the guys - it's the Rudd Government that wants to take a Howard Government program and rush it into practice and no doubt maladminister it, even though the science is evolving. These are the guys that are going to muck things up and I think it's only right and proper that they should be held to account and put on the spot.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Chris Bowen, it is interesting though that we repeatedly hear this line from you and we heard it from the Treasurer Wayne Swan today that there are discussions yet to be had. "Now, hang on, don't think you're going to be left out in the cold, we can fling you some free permits and the like." If you're actually trying to put in place a system that changes the culture of this country being a gross emitter of greenhouse gases. If you're trying to turn that around, you can't cushion everyone. Why is the Government trying to cushion everyone?
CHRIS BOWEN:
Absolutely. No, we're not. Absolutely.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Or except perhaps middle income earners.
CHRIS BOWEN:
Well, I'm not sure what I said that Tony took out of that indicated there'd be no cost. We've made it very clear there is a cost to this. But Australia faces a choice: we can pay for carbon now or we can pay a lot more into the future. And I think the Australian people are way ahead of the Liberal Party on this. They understand it. The Liberal Party is all over the shop on this, walking more than both sides of the street, every potential angle, saying on the one hand we've dusted off a Howard program; on the other hand, it's just a new tax and should be avoided. They've adopted more positions over the last week than you'd find on a cricket pitch. But they really just don't get that the Australian people understand there is a price to be paid, but they expect us to introduce this in a sensible, balanced way, which helps those in the community least able to afford it and that's exactly what we're doing.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Tony Abbott, the Government has to some extent snookered you a bit on this. I mean, it is a curious emissions trading plan as interpreted by some analysts, in that it clearly takes up the concern that the electorate had last year that the previous Government wasn't taking this issue seriously, and so there's a plan out there. But it's not so harsh that it shoves people running into the loving arms of the Coalition. It's sort of the left you between the proverbial rock and a hard place, hasn't it?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, I'm not sure about that, Virginia.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
They are rushing to you, are they?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, I mean, the now Government says that the Coalition doesn't take this issue seriously and yet they've actually taken up the Howard Government's plan, except they want to rush it in too early, even though the situation is evolving. Now ...
CHRIS BOWEN:
What does that mean?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, what it...
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Why do you keep calling it the Howard Government's plan?
TONY ABBOTT:
Because the emissions trading system that Labor is proposing is essentially a carbon copy of what the Howard Government proposed only we wanted to wait and see what happened until 2012. We didn't want to rush it in as an act of theology in just a couple of years' time, when the expert advice that we got was that it was impossible to bring in an emissions trading system safely and fairly in the time frame that Labor is now pursuing.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Chris Bowen, do you accept that? I guess you'd see it as a criticism that it's a Howard Government plan?
CHRIS BOWEN:
Well, Tony says the science is evolving. I don't believe it is. The Government doesn't believe that it is. The science is in. The verdict is in. The world is warming and governments need to take action. Now...
TONY ABBOTT:
So did you read the article by David Evans in the paper today?
CHRIS BOWEN:
Well, I've read all the science. I've read the IPCC report. I've - the Government accepts the science by all the world's respected scientists that global warming is a fact. Now, Tony says the science is evolving and therefore we shouldn't rush. Now, the world is faced with, if you like, a prisoner's dilemma. Everybody accepts that governments should be doing something, but nobody wants to be the first one. But governments do need to act, and governments around the world are acting and we need to act, and the previous Government had it on the never never. It was recommended that they do it in - I think it was 2003 - the cabinet submission to say that there should be an emissions trading scheme, which was rejected. Europe's done it since 2005. We need to do it. 2010 is ambitious, but workable, and it's an appropriate time frame.
TONY ABBOTT:
So, what's the Indian Government doing and what's the Chinese Government doing?
CHRIS BOWEN:
Well, see, this is the conservative answer, that you should always let somebody else. It used to be America. It used to be, "Oh, we shouldn't sign Kyoto because America's not doing it." Now it's India and China, you know? And this argument that we're such a small country that we shouldn't be bothered. Well, we have the highest per capita emissions in the OECD - twice the OECD average. We emit about as much as France, about as much as Great Britain. We have to do something. We have to pull our weight and the Australian people on 24 November expected the Government to actually take emissions trading seriously because they knew, they knew frankly the last mob just didn't. They were climate sceptics. As Tony keeps saying tonight: the science is evolving. That's code for, "I'm a climate sceptic".
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Well, it is interesting, Tony Abbott, because your observations tonight, it seems to me, indicate the problem, or part of the problem, that the Opposition finds itself in. You do seem to be a bit of a climate change sceptic this evening. You're quoting that article in The Australian today which raises the prospect that perhaps carbon dioxide is not the great contributor to global warming. And yet there are many other positions within your Party on this and some who are - including your leader - who are much more firm about the need for some kind of cap and trade system.
TONY ABBOTT:
Look, I am all in favour...
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
So if you have all these positions, where are you really?
TONY ABBOTT:
No, but - look, I make two points, Virginia. The first point is, of course, of course we should try in a sensible, fair way to reduce our carbon dioxide emissions. Of course we should try to do that.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
But when? When do you start?
TONY ABBOTT:
But the other point I make is that we are not the Government. This mob are. And that's why they have to be able to give a clear explanation of who is going to hurt under their policies. He says people are going to have to pay, there will be a price, but he says the price won't actually fall on any real company or any real person.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Alright, well, let's get to an element of the whole issue that does concern you and the Opposition, Tony Abbott, because there's some clear indications coming now from the Prime Minister Kevin Rudd that he's going to sideline the Greens and the Independents in negotiating in the Senate for his package. He wants instead to deal with the Opposition. Can you deal with him? What will you deal over?
TONY ABBOTT:
He puts a proposal forward, we will deal with it.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Well, the proposal's out there. I'm sure you've read it.
TONY ABBOTT:
No, but it's, it's a content-less proposal.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
OK, so you're not going to deal then?
TONY ABBOTT:
No, but I mean he, you know, he's given us a skeleton with no flesh, no muscle, no sinew, and this is a Government which says it's done something when really it's just given us a shadow of something.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Tony Abbott, you're ducking and weaving here, I mean...
TONY ABBOTT:
No, I...
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Yeah, but there's enough out there at least for you to say, "No, that won't work, this will?"
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, as I said, it's not for us - I mean, the Howard Government put forward a policy. Essentially it's been adopted by the Government.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Sure, sure, but we're talking here about what happens in the Senate now. And you have a role to play there.
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, well, let the Government put the flesh on the bones, put it forward, and we will carefully consider it.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Alright. Chris Bowen, there's an interesting case though it seems and I think the comment that was made by the Woodside Petroleum chief executive today about buying a whole lot of airline tickets bears this out, that the Government in its wisdom has decided that this scheme will not be governed by an independent body, a la a Reserve Bank board or even like the Murray-Darling independent body, the scheme there. That it'll be actually oversighted by parliamentarians, leaving you open to all sorts of influence and influence peddling and negotiating and the like. Isn't there a really strong case for having some sort of independent body, when you've got people like Woodside Petroleum, with their great money, buying all those tickets up to Canberra?
CHRIS BOWEN:
Well, you put it in pejorative terms that we're leaving ourselves open for influence peddling.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
That is a risk, though.
CHRIS BOWEN:
But that, to be honest, is a pejorative term. What it does is to say we're the executive, we're the Government, we're accountable and the Government, the elected Government should set the targets and should set the system. And that's what is in the green paper as the preferred model to go forward. If you didn't do that, you'd be open to criticism that you'd left it in the hands of an unelected body. These are always...
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Oh, no one has a problem with something like a Reserve Bank board though.
CHRIS BOWEN:
No, no, but they're really separate issues and different cases.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
They're not comparable?
CHRIS BOWEN:
Well, not really. You will always have this balance; you will all have these sorts of arguments: what should be done by the government and the parliament and what should be done by an independent statutory authority? We've come down on the side in the green paper of the Parliament and the executive setting the framework.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Where do you stand on this, Tony Abbott? Where does the Opposition stand on the idea of some independent body oversighting this?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, as I said, we're not the Government. We are the Opposition. Let them put their proposal forward.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
(Laughs). I'm asking you as the Opposition member here this evening, Tony Abbott.
TONY ABBOTT:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but, look, we're only six months past an election. And frankly, this Government stole enough Coalition policy; we're not going to give them any more of their ETS policy to steal.
CHRIS BOWEN:
It's impossible to steal their policies when they've got about nine policies on one issue. They are all over the shop on this. They don't know where they stand.
TONY ABBOTT:
This guy's still in Opposition. That's his problem.
CHRIS BOWEN:
No, no. Well, look, the Liberal Party's in a complete mess.
TONY ABBOTT:
Come on, you're in Government. You fix the problem. You fix the problem.
CHRIS BOWEN:
Yeah, absolutely and that's why we've put out a very substantive green paper with very substantive policy proposals in it to be worked through. But the Liberal Party one day doesn't support emissions trading, the next day does; one day thinks it should be 2010, the next day, 2013; one day in favour of a hybrid, the next day emissions trading.
TONY ABBOTT:
Come on, he's in Government.
CHRIS BOWEN:
I mean, just believe in something. Just believe in something! Stand up for something!
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Alright, why don't we move onto another subject, gentlemen, then. The Pope's arrival in Australia's been the trigger as I guess many might expect for some to voice their anger over the Church's reluctance in some cases to deal successfully with the issues of sexual abuse by some of its priests. How do you think Cardinal Pell has handled these matters in the last few weeks and in particular the allegations raised here on Lateline?
TONY ABBOTT:
They're difficult allegations and, frankly, it doesn't matter how they're handled, it's not going to satisfy people. Cardinal Pell says that he could've handled the particular case that was the beginning of Lateline's campaign better, and good on him for saying that. But really, Virginia, the essence of this papal visit is not the sins of the flesh of a few clergy. The essence of it is the faith which animates about five million Australians, and the Christianity which still moulds and shapes our society and is at the heart of our civilisation. Now, I think it's
important that we should celebrate these things, and because it's a human faith, as well as we believe a divine faith, the practice is imperfect because we live in an imperfect world. But nevertheless, I think this has been great for Sydney, great for Australia and it'll be good for the Church.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Chris Bowen, what's your view on how both Cardinal Pell and I guess the Church more broadly has handled this? The bishop in charge of World Youth Day, Anthony Fisher, said that those with grievances were, and this was his observation, "dwelling crankily on old wounds". Does that get us very far?
CHRIS BOWEN:
I think you could've put it a lot better and I'd say he would probably would acknowledge that. I'm guessing. Look, this is primarily a matter for the Church. This is an opportunity, World Youth Day, I would've thought, to deal with some of these matters, but it is a matter for the Church, and they will need to deal with it as they see fit.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Just a personal observation, Tony Abbott: what does it mean to you when the Pope comes to town? As a Catholic, I'm asking you.
TONY ABBOTT:
Sure. Well, look, it is pretty special, because he is the greatest Christian leader on our planet. And this particular Pope is probably the most distinguished living Catholic theologian. So, he is a teacher as well as a leader, and what I think is remarkable about this Pope's message is there's nothing of the scold about him. He hasn't come with a whole set of prohibitions and warnings. He's come to uplift us, to speak to the better angels of our nature and to stress that Christ didn't come to save saints; he came to save sinners. And, frankly, I think that's a very good message because the message of the man in the gospel - "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief", I think is very apt in modern times.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Well, from matters of the spirit to matters of the flesh and the very real political world, there are two interesting or even more I think books forthcoming politically. And one that's going to be launched next week by the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, takes us inside the Kevin '07 campaign. And according to early reports, it apparently paints a picture of a ruthless campaign to take office. Now, Chris Bowen, Kevin Rudd presents it himself as just Kevin from Queensland, an ordinary guy who was here to help. Do you anticipate a backlash from such a savage portrait?
CHRIS BOWEN:
Oh, well, I'm not sure - it depends on your definition of ruthless. I think people expect the leader of the Opposition on any given day to be pretty keen to take office. That's what the whole job's about.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
It's a matter of whether there's going to be a disjunct now between the impression that he created of being this affable guy and someone who's actually a very hard-headed politician.
CHRIS BOWEN:
I think you can be affable and ambitious for your Party at the same time. And that's my experience of Kevin. He's certainly affable, but certainly in Opposition was very keen to move to the other side of the chamber - as you would expect. That's why we elected him leader of the Labor Party.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
You'll be reading that with interest, won't you, Tony Abbott?
TONY ABBOTT:
Look, I'll certainly be reading it and if there are any fundamental disconnects between the Kevin that is presented to the public and the real Kevin Rudd, we'll certainly be highlighting them. I mean I think that the guy is an artifice, but nevertheless, let's wait and see what the book says.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Alright, well talking of artifice, you've taken on the difficult challenge of presenting back to conservative Australia, to political conservatives, in a book that you're going to be writing and publishing soon. Is it a new vision of what contemporary Australian conservatism should look like? How should it look?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, it's got to speak to our optimism and to our idealism.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
And it's got to get back in office, too.
TONY ABBOTT:
Of course, of course. And look, I've only just started to write this book. I've got six months to draft it. And as you would know from writing yourself, Virginia, your thoughts evolve. But look, I'll be taking what I think are the enduring values and trying to make them relevant and attractive to the contemporary Australian voter.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
And, of course, the ruthless politician on the Government side then would be reading that book and using it as ammunition in the next political battle, yes, Chris Bowen?
CHRIS BOWEN:
Oh, I will be reading it, but...
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, good, I'm pleased that there's going to be a few sales!
CHRIS BOWEN:
Absolutely. I'll be down at the book store, and Tony.
TONY ABBOTT:
I need the royalties, I'm in Opposition!
CHRIS BOWEN:
Tony might even sign it for me if he's - if the mood takes him. I'll add it to my collection of political books, but, ah ... Look, political debate is a good thing. Lots of Labor frontbenchers in Opposition wrote books. It's something that lends itself in Opposition, the great battle of ideas.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
Sure.
CHRIS BOWEN:
And I'd welcome Tony's book as part of that battle of ideas. It's a good development. Peter Costello used to criticise Labor MPs who wrote books, but I wouldn't criticise Tony. I think anybody who contributes to the debate on public policy, it's a good thing and a welcome development.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI:
It's a matter of just how many political books we can stand, but we'll let time tell that. Gentlemen, great having you on the program. Thanks so much.
TONY ABBOTT:
Thanks, Virginia.
CHRIS BOWEN:
Great.