SUBJECTS: Tony Abbott, federal election, Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, Barnaby Joyce, Government's fiscal strategy, unemployment.
FRAN KELLY:
Our resident pollies this year: Christopher Pyne from the Liberal Party, Chris Bowen from Labor. Welcome back, both of you.
CHRIS BOWEN:
Good morning Fran; morning, Christopher.
CHRISTOPHER PYNE:
Fran; morning, Chris.
KELLY:
Now, this week Tony Abbott said housewives should beware: Labor's ETS would make their job of ironing more expensive. Fellas, who ironed your shirts today?
BOWEN:
Well, when I'm in Canberra I iron my own. How about you, Christopher?
PYNE:
Well, I used to iron my own when I was in Canberra, but now they all get ironed in Adelaide by a person down the road at Shiny Brights, who irons about 12 at a time and that's a very good idea. Neither my wife nor I have to iron our shirts.
BOWEN:
Yes, we do that as well.
KELLY:
So housewives of Australia perhaps don't need to be clued up like this. Tony Abbott should move on, update.
PYNE:
Well, I don't think what Tony Abbott said was particularly exceptional.
KELLY:
You don't?
PYNE:
No, not really exceptional. I mean, people are very oversensitive to anything that Tony Abbott says. They're always looking for these kinds of criticisms to make of him but I think most Australians would have had a wry smile and moved on.
KELLY:
Chris?
BOWEN:
It's not the 50s anymore, but Tony Abbott has to stand by what he said.
PYNE:
I think Labor overreacted to this in the same way they overreacted to his comments a few weeks ago about advice that he'd give to his daughter. I mean, when people found out that the question he'd been asked was what advice would he give his daughters, most people, and most men in particular, thought, 'Well, what do they expect him to say?'
KELLY:
I think references to housewives these days are a little ill-judged. But anyway, let's move on but let's stay with Tony Abbott, Christopher, because he told you and others in the Party Room yesterday, 'Yes, we can win in the election. Coalition MPs should be encouraged by political developments; the Government's on the back foot.' Now, the Prime Minister accused the Opposition Leader of assuming the election is already in the bag. Christopher Pyne, is the Opposition starting to get a little too cocky?
PYNE:
Well, we are well behind in the polls. We need 17 seats to win the election. There's no possibility that we could be regarded as anything other than the underdog. Labor has spent the last two-and-a-half years planning how many extra Coalition seats they're going to win at the next election, including mine, so I don't think anybody's getting overconfident.
I think what Tony Abbott was saying is that if we remain united, if we have a genuine policy alternative and if we successfully expose the enormous flaws in this Government and their failure to explain their ETS and their desire to introduce a big new tax, then the election will be very competitive and I think that's exactly what the Australian people want: a competitive election.
KELLY:
Chris Bowen, has Kevin Rudd given you a 'yes we can' speech?
BOWEN:
No, he's given us a 'this is going to be tough' speech. He's given us the speech reminding us that in 1984, the first term Hawke Government almost lost; in 1998, the first term Howard Government almost lost, very close run things – in fact, Kim Beazley got a majority of the vote in 1998 – and that first term Governments tend to face a very difficult re-election challenge. That's the speech he's given us. He hasn't given us the slightly cocky channelling of Barack Obama we saw yesterday from Tony Abbott.
PYNE:
Well, there's nothing cocky from the Liberal Party, but what I can say is that yesterday Kevin Rudd told his troops that it was about the economy and health. Not long ago he was saying the Emissions Trading Scheme was the greatest moral challenge of our time. He said it 22 times in the last two years. And I think, Chris, you've asked two questions this week about the Emissions Trading Scheme and climate change, so out of 20 Labor questions, two have been about the greatest moral challenge of our time. It looks like Labor's dropping their ETS.
BOWEN:
We've been talking about the Emissions Trading Scheme and CPRS plenty Chris, and you know it.
PYNE:
Why have you only asked two questions out of 20?
KELLY:
I just think if we take the temperature of Parliament and beyond this week, there's no doubt it feels like an election is nigh. And as it gets close to an election, it's always about the economy, isn't it?
And on that front, Christopher Pyne, does the Coalition have a few problems with your Shadow Finance Spokesperson? Barnaby Joyce won't be silenced. Now, I guess you don't want him to be silent, but he was warning yesterday that Australia soon won't be able to pay off its overseas debt. What are you going to do with Barnaby Joyce?
PYNE:
Well, I think Barnaby was very importantly placing debt front and centre in this coming election campaign.
KELLY:
Was he right? Was he right or wrong?
PYNE:
He wasn't suggesting for a minute that Australia was going to default on its loans. What he was saying was –
BOWEN:
It's what he said.
PYNE:
He did not say that.
BOWEN:
Of course he did.
KELLY:
I'll get you the quote while you talk.
PYNE:
What he was saying is that we are out of control with our debt, that the Government is on a spending spree, that we now have rising debt to $256 billion gross by 2013, that there is no plan to reduce debt and that that is an issue that every Australian should be deeply concerned about. It's amazing to me that the commentariat here in Canberra and the Labor Party are so insouciant about debt, because obviously it's part of the Labor Party's re-election strategy to spend as much money as they can and make debt seem unimportant.
But even Glenn Stevens this morning in The Sydney Morning Herald, the Reserve Bank Governor, is saying that if the Government doesn't have a plan for low debt it will have an impact on interest rates rises.
KELLY:
Okay, let's just hear – let's straighten this out, let's not take anyone's word for it. Let's hear Barnaby Joyce yesterday.
BARNABY JOYCE:
[Grab] We're going to hock to our eyeballs to people overseas. You've got to ask the question, how far in debt do you want to go? We are getting to a point where we can't repay it.
KELLY:
'We are getting to a point where we can't repay it.'
PYNE:
He's saying we're getting to a point where our debt is out of control.
KELLY:
We've got a AAA-rating.
PYNE:
So what? So debt's not a problem? So -
KELLY:
They're two different issues, I think, aren't they?
PYNE:
Is that your position, or is that the Labor Party's position, that debt is not an issue? That we can just keep borrowing –
KELLY:
Alright, alright. Chris Bowen, do you see – the Government's obviously leaping all over Barnaby Joyce and you're extending it to what you like to term the Opposition's 'economic team'. You're putting Joe Hockey in that slab of the worst economic team in years. I'm not quite sure what the case is against Joe Hockey in particular, but you see this as going all your own way. You wouldn't want Tony Abbott to be moving Barnaby Joyce, would you?
BOWEN:
Well, look, Barnaby's comments yesterday – despite Chris' dissembling – were extremely irresponsible. But this, as Chris highlights, is part of the Liberal Party's scare campaign on debt. And to say that we are in danger of defaulting on our debt, which is what he did, is grossly irresponsible and shows just how erratic he is, but also is a continuation of the Liberal and National Parties' scare campaign on debt.
Now, our deficit this year is around 4.5 per cent of GDP. In the United States and United Kingdom, it's over 10. Our debt levels are going to peak at over 9 per cent of GDP at the same time that around the world debt levels in the OECD will be approaching 100 per cent of GDP and exceeding 100 per cent in some nations, so we've got to put this into perspective. The Liberal Party and National Party know that Government debt levels in Australia are lower than they were not too long ago. Christopher, you know that's a fact. So you can run this scare -
PYNE:
Why won't you say the figures?
BOWEN:
Well, I've just run through the figures, Christopher. Weren't you listening?
KELLY:
What is the deficit next year?
PYNE:
[Inaudible] percentages.
BOWEN:
Weren't you listening to that?
PYNE:
What are the actual figures?
BOWEN:
The percentages: 4.5 per cent of GDP –
PYNE:
Percentages are not –
BOWEN:
[Sarcastic] Oh, percentages don't count. And so when you're comparing United States and Australia you shouldn't worry about percentages.
KELLY:
I think the point is, Chris Bowen, that there's plenty of polling that suggests voters are a bit touchy about debt, they are worried about debt and deficit. Everyone understands what it's like to be in debt too much and people don't like it.
And now we've got the Reserve Bank Governor saying there is a trade-off between interest rates and Budget spending. That hasn't helped your case particularly at this moment, has it?
BOWEN:
Well, what the Reserve Bank Governor was saying – it's a very good paper, it's a very extensive paper, it's a very erudite paper – and he makes explicit in there, and there's no question about this, he makes it explicit in there that he's talking about nations with much higher debt levels than Australia. He has consistently said he is very comfortable with the fiscal position in Australia, with the Government's fiscal strategy. He has consistently said that if it wasn't for the Government's fiscal strategy we would be in recession. In other words, Fran, we'd be in a jobs deficit.
Now, Christopher can talk about deficits. His plan, his party's approach would see unemployment in Australia much higher than it is and you're right – people know what it's like to be in debt and people know what it's like to be unemployed. And they know that if it hadn't been for this Government's action, unemployment would be much higher in Australia than it is now.
KELLY:
Okay, well I've got a feeling we'll be talking debt and deficit all the way up to the next election, whenever that is. Chris Bowen, Christopher Pyne, thanks for joining us on Polls Apart.
PYNE:
It's a pleasure.
BOWEN:
Always a pleasure, Fran.