SUBJECTS: Peter Costello, Paid parental leave, Newspoll, Julia Gillard, Youth Allowance, Paul Keating, superannuation, health reform.
FRAN KELLY:
Financial Services Minister Chris Bowen and Shadow Education Minister Christopher Pyne, good morning to you both.
CHRISTOPHER PYNE:
Good morning, Fran. Happy St Patrick's Day to you.
KELLY:
Thank you very much. With a name like Kelly, I'm allowed to bang on about it.
CHRIS BOWEN:
On behalf of all Welsh Australians, happy St Patrick's Day to the Irish Australians.
KELLY:
Okay, thank you very much. Alright, okay, enough already, St Patrick's Day. Okay, let's rip into it.
Christopher Pyne, I think we'd better start with Peter Costello's contribution to the debate today in the Fairfax newspapers. Peter Costello is very critical of Tony Abbott's Paid parental leave scheme. He accuses Tony Abbott of engaging in a policy race to the bottom. He says the scheme is silly – alarm bells should have sounded like air raid sirens once Bob Brown endorsed it – and he said he's been in the Liberal Party for a very long time and he can honestly say he's never heard a speech in favour of higher tax. 'Bad policy' from a Treasurer that you admired enormously.
PYNE:
Well, Peter Costello is a famously miserly former Treasurer. He managed to get our Budget into surplus for most of the time that we were in Government. He left the current Government with money in the bank. He established the Future Fund. He paid down the debt.
KELLY:
All policy work which you, as I say, you're a big fan of.
PYNE:
Sure. Look, I'm a big fan of it. Peter Costello and John Howard set the country up and it's one of the reasons why Australia did as well as it did in the Global Financial Crisis, because of the foundations upon which the Government started.
KELLY:
So presumably you'd agree with him, then: this direction on policy from Tony Abbott is not great economic policy.
PYNE:
No, I don't agree with him on that, and he's entitled to his opinion but you have to move with the times and what we have in the Coalition is a fully costed, fully funded, very generous paid parental leave policy. It's more generous than the Government's. It provides eight more weeks than the Government at higher pay for most people.
KELLY:
Funded by a great big new tax.
PYNE:
Well, it's not a great big new tax at all, Fran.
KELLY:
$2.6 billion.
PYNE:
It's a 1.7 per cent levy on 3,200 of the largest businesses in Australia out of 750,000 businesses. Now, I don't regard that, I don't think the public regard that as a tax, as a big new tax. In fact, I think that most people believe that paid parental leave's time has arrived and that Tony Abbott has gone out in front of the Government.
Now, Peter Costello's entitled to his view but I think a very generous paid parental leave scheme is a good idea for Australia economically, socially, it supports families. It's not just popular with women, Fran; it'll be popular with men as well because it supports families with children.
KELLY:
Christopher Bowen, now that I'm here in the studio with you two, I can see you smiling as Christopher Pyne perhaps has to fend off this attack from Peter Costello from one of his own, but you shouldn't be too smiley because what I'm wanting to talk to you about is the polls. Why aren't people satisfied with the Prime Minister?
BOWEN:
Well Fran, we've said for some time the next election's going to be tight and people are now taking us seriously when we say that. If three out of 100 people change their mind from the last election, then Tony Abbott will be Prime Minister, health reform's out the window, WorkChoices is back and Barnaby Joyce is sitting in the chair as Finance Minister. Now, we've said for some time this election's going to be tight and that Tony Abbott becoming Prime Minister of Australia is a possibility which people need to take seriously, with all the risk and the danger that entails for economic management. I mean, what Peter Costello thinks about Tony Abbott's economic management skills is not fit for repetition on a family breakfast radio program, Fran, and on this issue, Peter Costello is right and it's sad to see one of Peter Costello's greatest perform, supporters –
PYNE:
[laughs] Performers.
BOWEN:
– after all those years, walk away from him. You know, you were a great supporter of Peter's, Chris.
PYNE:
And a great performer.
BOWEN:
Oh well, that's arguable, but you were certainly a great supporter and it's sad to see you walking away from Peter Costello as you wind and twist to try and defend this appallingly bad policy track record on behalf of Tony Abbott.
KELLY:
Let's go back to people walking away from Kevin Rudd, because 48 per cent approval rating, walking away from [inaudible] the primary vote 39 per cent. That's not a great, strong showing in the primary vote.
But what I want to talk about is all this talk now that people are openly talking about Julia Gillard, that Julia Gillard ascendancy.
BOWEN:
Well Fran, some people around this building, in the Press Gallery in particular, love nothing more than a conspiracy theory and this is just the mother of all conspiracy theories; a fantasy. Kevin Rudd will be Prime Minister a) for as long as the Australian people want him to, and b) as long as he wants himself to be. This is just an invention of people who go around inventing conspiracy theories because they've got nothing better to do.
KELLY:
Labor backbenchers, or backbenchers on both sides, often get into trouble at times like this. Let's just hear from Labor backbencher Darren Cheeseman.
[grab] DARREN CHEESEMAN:
Julia Gillard is an absolute first class Deputy Prime Minister. I have a lot of faith and confidence in the capacity of Julia Gillard. She is naturally in line to become Prime Minister at some point into the future.
KELLY:
Now, it should be said Darren Cheeseman also expressed strong support for Kevin Rudd. But that notion that Julia Gillard is the contender if the PM would fall under the proverbial bus, as John Howard used to like putting it, that's how you see it?
BOWEN:
Well look, isn't it a terrible thing that the Government has two very talented people right at the top: Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard. And we bat right down the order, more than could be said for the Liberal Party. So yes, we have two very talented people at the top and Julia Gillard is a very good Deputy Prime Minister.
KELLY:
Christopher Pyne, who does the Liberal Party fear more in terms of, you know, making a pitch to the electorate: Kevin Rudd or Julia Gillard?
PYNE:
Well Fran, Tony Abbott doesn't fear anyone, but we certainly think that Julia Gillard would be a tougher personality to face at an election. She is clearly their better Parliamentary performer, although Kevin Rudd's probably one of the worst Parliamentary performers in Question Time of any Prime Minister I've ever experienced. That's not actually saying very much but she's certainly much better.
Can I give you an example: you know, she and I have reached a deal on the Youth Allowance. Clearly, she's trying to send out the message to people that she can actually get things through the Senate, that she's not just all talk and no action, unlike the Prime Minister. It's subtle, but it's being noticed around here that she's –
KELLY:
That's a bit rough, isn't it? You've been working on this, trying to get it through for ages. You think she's only agreed because it was all in this talk of all talk, no action.
PYNE:
Well Fran, we agreed in a week and last year, and in January and in February, she said that the things the Coalition was asking for were impossible.
KELLY:
So you haven't changed what you were asking for at all?
PYNE:
No, we have achieved most of the things we asked for. We've got rid of all the retrospectivity. We've had rural, remote and very remote young people included under the old work tests for the independent youth rate, and our savings measure has been adopted to pay for it. So you know, last year it was impossible, in January and February it was impossible, in March it suddenly becomes doable. In a week, we've negotiated. Who's the person getting things through the Senate? Who's the person who's not just all talk and no action when it comes to Youth Allowance? I think the message to the caucus is pretty clear.
KELLY:
Chris Bowen, do you agree with that? I mean, the PM has been accused of not rolling up his sleeves and doing the hard yards, to mix a few metaphors there.
BOWEN:
Oh look, I don't think anybody's, in fairness, Fran, ever accused the Prime Minister of not doing the hard yards and not working hard. I think even his most vocal critics would not suggest that.
In all seriousness, credit where it's due, I'm glad that the Liberal Party came to the table and negotiated this. As I said on this program, I think it was a couple of weeks ago, Fran, this is really important for getting kids from disadvantaged backgrounds into university. This stuff really counts. I begged with Chris a couple of weeks ago to sit down with Julia Gillard and talk this through for the good of the people, to get those people in university. I'm glad he did. I'm glad the petty and juvenile games about where their meeting was going to be and what time it ceased…
PYNE:
We've been offering to meet with her since last August. Suddenly in March she can meet with us.
BOWEN:
Yeah, well you've been writing letters saying, you know, 'you can come to my office'. In all seriousness, I'm trying to be magnanimous about this.
PYNE:
[inaudible] feel about it, actually.
BOWEN:
Well no, I'm saying that I'm glad you put the triviality aside, Chris. I'm trying to pay you a compliment. If you'd be quiet for a second, I'll pay a compliment. I'm glad you put the triviality aside and –
PYNE:
Is this how you speak to your family at home as well?
BOWEN:
I'm glad you sat down and did a deal in the public interest.
KELLY:
Talk about paying compliments, we had our former Prime Minister Paul Keating on this program yesterday paying no compliments to Tony Abbott. Let's just remind ourselves of that, if we can.
[grab] ABBOTT:
I try not to pay too much –
KELLY:
Oh no, that's the wrong one. That's the wrong one. Let's not hear Tony Abbott. Let's hear Paul Keating talking about Tony Abbott, if we can find that grab.
[grab] PAUL KEATING:
I mean, if Tony Abbott ends up the Prime Minister of Australia, God help us. God help us. You know, truly an intellectual nobody. And no policy ambition. You know, I mean, is that all there is? You know the song, is that all there is? I mean, Turnbull had an articulated, intelligent, moderate, thought out conservative position. The fact is that Abbott does not have this.
KELLY:
That was Paul Keating talking yesterday about Tony Abbott. A lot of people don't like that kind of talk, but a lot of people are saying. 'Why can't Kevin Rudd land blows on Tony Abbott like that?'
BOWEN:
Well, Paul Keating is a particularly robust communicator and that has its place in Australian public life. Let me say this, Fran: Kevin Rudd comprehensively out communicated John Howard, the alleged great communicator of Australian politics, at the last election. He will comprehensively out communicate Tony Abbott at the next election.
PYNE:
That sounds a little conceited. I actually think the last election was probably one of the easiest elections for the Labor Party to win. The Government had been in power 11-and-a-half years. We had spent three years arguing amongst ourselves about whether John Howard should go or whether he should stay. We offered to the public the best we could. Quite frankly, the public looked at us and said, you know, 'You're not talking about the things that we're interested in'. So I think it was one of the easiest elections –in some respects, almost the drover's dog election – and that's why Kevin Rudd won.
BOWEN:
Oh, what a rewriting of history.
KELLY:
Christopher Pyne, Tony Abbott thinks you can win this election which would be historic, obviously. But he also said to the Party Room this week the challenge to be a credible alternative, not just to be an effective Opposition. Now, at the same time, in the same speech, he's saying, he told the Party Room that the Government, not the Opposition, should be the issue each and every day. You can't have it all ways. If you try to make the Government the issue and yet you're trying to present yourself as being a credible alternative Government, where are the policies? Where are the full, costed policies?
PYNE:
Well, let me give you a good example of what Tony Abbott is saying. You make the Government the issue and the Government's issue at the moment is that they're all talk and no action. So we have a direct action policy on climate change. We have a direct action policy on Paid parental leave. We have a direct action policy on the Murray-Darling basin and a referendum. So, in fact, by putting out those policy ideas which are about action we are highlighting the fact that the Government is all talk and no action.
KELLY:
It'd be fair to say, though, that some of the policies that Tony Abbott's putting out are only kind of part policies, aren't they? Look at the hospital policy. You know, two local networks in two states. I mean, that's not a public hospital policy. That's just a diversion.
PYNE:
No, but we're in Opposition and we've said that these are the ideas that we will be taking to the election. We've also said that we'll flesh out all those ideas and there'll be more detail later. That's what you'd expect the Opposition to be doing. You expect the Government to actually be getting on with things, rather than trying to blame the Opposition. I actually think the irony is the Government's behaving more like an Opposition when it should be actually behaving like a Government.
KELLY:
Now, Chris Bowen you get the final say today. We've got a lot of issues. I wanted to get to Paul Keating's challenge for you to lift the superannuation guarantee to 12 per cent. That's directly in your portfolio. I'd love you to give me a quick comment on that.
And finally, what is the message? How desperate are Labor MPs feeling as they go out to their electorates for these seven weeks?
BOWEN:
I'll deal with Paul Keating and super. Of all Paul Keating's economic reforms – and they are many and substantial – I think superannuation was the most important. It had a long term impact on people's retirement incomes and on the strength of the Australian economy, and he is right to be so proud of it.
KELLY:
But he only had part of the vision in place. He wants you guys to do the rest.
BOWEN:
And we do and I've said several times, we need to address adequacy and the superannuation guarantee needs to be on the table as part of that. So too does efficiency. Small improvements in efficiency now, I know it's not sexy –
KELLY:
But 12 per cent is possible?
BOWEN:
I've said that all these issues need to be on the table for a national discussion. That's what's occurring. That's what you had yesterday with Paul Keating and you've seen at the conference in Queensland and you're likely to see from Jeff Lawrence today. That discussion is occurring but it's not just about the SG, it's not just about SG. We need to improve efficiency. A small reduction in costs now can make a very big increase in people's retirement incomes over the future. It's about the whole tax treatment of superannuation, which we're looking at as part of that independent tax review process. So all these things need to be on the table. These are big reforms and this will be a period of substantial reforms for super.
The last word, Fran, what we haven't heard about today, what we haven't had time to deal with, of course, is health. We're going to hear a lot more about this over the coming months. This will be a touchstone issue in the election. The contrast between the previous Government, which took money out of health, and us with the biggest reform plan for health in generations.
KELLY:
Chris Bowen and Christopher Pyne, so much more well mannered when I'm here in the studio with you.
Thank you very much for joining us on Polls Apart.