SUBJECTS: Health reform, asylum seekers, Building the Education Revolution
FRAN KELLY:
Our resident pollies: Financial Services Minister Chris Bowen is in Sydney this morning and the Shadow Education Minister Christopher Pyne joins me here in the Adelaide studios. Welcome to both of you.
CHRIS BOWEN:
Morning, Fran.
CHRISTOPHER PYNE:
Good morning, Fran.
KELLY:
Chris Bowen, let's start with you. The PM has hung his leadership on health reform. He clearly wants that to be the centrepiece of the election. If this deal with the states goes down in a screaming heap - and you'd have to say that Victorian Premier John Brumby is not sounding like a fan - what will be the political damage to the Government?
BOWEN:
Well, we're focused on getting a deal on Monday and beyond, Fran. This is important. This is the biggest reform to the health system in generations and we didn't expect it to be uncontroversial. If it was uncontroversial, somebody else would have done it in the past. You don't expect, when you're announcing such major reform, the Premiers just to line up one by one and sign up. You expect tough negotiations and that's what we're having.
But what we don't believe in is more resources without reform. The health system needs more resources; it needs reform as well. We're not going to just write a blank cheque and say, 'Well, here's a whole lot of resources for the states but we're not interested in reform'. It was always going to make the process more difficult and it's a process we're committed to.
KELLY:
Sure. Controversial is one thing, whether it's right is another thing, and you may be committed but if John Brumby doesn't come around, the PM has promised to take this to a referendum. Without a key state like Victoria supporting it, and even worse, criticising it from the sidelines, you're unlikely to get a referendum up either.
BOWEN:
Well, we'll deal with that if and when we come to it. I've seen the premiers, other premiers, overnight make quite strong comments in support. Mike Rann and Anna Bligh have been very supportive, and the other premiers have been quite constructive.
But as I say, we are not going to give a blank cheque. And you know, John Brumby has his plan out there, which calls for more resources. That's fine, we're putting more resources in, but we also need reform and that will be difficult but we are engaging with the states. We are engaging with all of them, including John Brumby, including Western Australia, and you know, we will be working very hard to try and get this deal up…
KELLY:
Okay.
BOWEN:
If the deal doesn't get up through the COAG, well, we've laid out that we need to seek a mandate and there'll be more details about that.
KELLY:
Okay. Christopher Pyne, let me bring you in here. If the states support it in the end, after COAG, will the Opposition then support it through the Senate, and support it to a referendum on the other hand if the states don't support it?
PYNE:
Well Fran, the problem with this - I'll answer that question, I'm not trying to avoid it - but the problem with this whole health reform is that basically, Kevin Rudd was looking at the polls at the beginning of this year and things weren't travelling very well. He thought, 'What I need is an enormous distraction, I'll propose a health reform and a health referendum', but he hadn't lined up the state premiers.
KELLY:
What, just as John Howard did when he needed a distraction in the middle of his first term and came up with a GST without telling his Cabinet?
PYNE:
Well, that was what, I mean -
KELLY:
That's what leaders can do.
PYNE:
That's 14 years ago, Fran. I mean, I'm not -
KELLY:
It worked for John Howard.
PYNE:
Well, we lost 17 seats in the 1998 election, so if the Labor Party loses 17 seats we'll be in Government. I hope the same thing happens.
In terms of these health reforms, well, the problem is they're not very good. And it's one thing to sort of have this great media distraction, this sort of spin cycle, as Kevin Rudd has created, but if the health reforms aren't very good, why should people sign up to them? John Brumby and Ken Baxter and Roger Corbett and Mr Deeble, who designed the - I think it's John Deeble who designed the Medicare system - they've all said it's a rubbish health reform that's not actually going to do anything other than create more bureaucracy, potentially cost more money. It's not putting any new money into beds, it's just essentially a political fix in an election year. And the referendum -
KELLY:
I'm a bit confused now though. Didn't your leader, Tony Abbott, say recently it seemed to be going in the same direction as the Coalition's policy?
PYNE:
Well, we'll look at it. I'm just talking about the politics of it at the moment. The politics of it was Kevin Rudd essentially trying to create a distraction because his Government hasn't done anything, and that's been the feedback at the summit, that it's a no action Government.
In terms of the referendum, the Government doesn't need a referendum. This is just another distraction. Under Section 51 of the Constitution, the Commonwealth has power over the funding of medical and dental services already. He doesn't need a referendum. And under Section 96, which is the funding of the states' power from the Commonwealth, it can basically do whatever it likes because of the brawlings in court cases over many decades.
KELLY:
Okay.
PYNE:
That's just another way of Kevin Rudd trying to look like he's tough because everyone knows that he's not.
KELLY:
Okay. I'm sure that we'll be talking about this next Wednesday too, so we'll move on because time is tight this morning.
Chris Bowen, the other big decision taken by the Federal Government in the past week was to suspend asylum claims by Afghanis and Sri Lankans arriving on Christmas Island. Yesterday on Breakfast, we spoke with Afghan expert William Maley, who said there would not be one expert around the world who would think the security situation for Hazaras in Afghanistan has improved. Why are you right and he's wrong?
BOWEN:
Well, we think there are signs of improvement but we accept that the situation in Afghanistan is serious. But the situation for Hazaras in particular is looking like it has potential for improvement and that there -
KELLY:
Who have you talked to? Who has the Government talked to get to that position? Not an expert like William Maley, not the UN, according to what I've read.
BOWEN:
Well, when you look at the situation of Hazaras, it has been the case up until now that they have almost automatic rights to asylum wherever they apply, because the situation has been so dire. Now, in the advice that we have from our officials, when you look at the UNHCR review of the Afghanistan situation, when you look at US State Department reports, the advice that we have is that that situation is improving, and that the proportion of Hazaras who had received asylum may fall. Now, the appropriate and prudent thing is to wait until you have all the information before you to enable that to take place, and that's what we're doing, both in Afghanistan and Sri Lanka. It's a prudent, sensible measure.
KELLY:
Christopher Pyne, I'm not sure why the Coalition wouldn't support this, given that you have been saying that the processing of asylum seekers has been too quick and too many people are getting in too quickly, with not proper checks, and certainly under the Coalition they were held longer in detention.
PYNE:
Well Fran, all we're getting from Chris Bowen this morning on asylum seekers is words, words, words.
KELLY:
Yeah, but why don't you support the Government's plan?
PYNE:
Well, we think the Government has made a complete hash of our border protection. We don't believe that they have a solution. They've come up last Friday with a plan to delay processing, not a plan to stop asylum seekers from getting to Australia. It's simply a plan to push off the processing of asylum seekers until after the next election.
KELLY:
Yes, but you've been calling on the Government to introduce deterrents to make it less speedy for people to get processed and given status here in Australia. Doesn't that do that?
PYNE:
We've been asking the Government to introduce Temporary Protection Visas, which the Howard Government had. I'll tell you what: between 2002 and 2007, there were virtually no asylum seekers arriving and no boats arriving, and since August 2008-
BOWEN:
[inaudible]
KELLY:
Hang on, Chris Bowen, in a minute.
PYNE:
Since August 2008, there have been 110 boats and over 5,000 people. Now, which policy has worked: the Howard Government's policies or the Rudd Government's policies?
KELLY:
Chris Bowen?
BOWEN:
Well, Chris can claim that TPVs worked. Of course, they came in substantially before then, and when TPVs came in the number of refugees seeking asylum in Australia went up. And Christopher can argue, if he wishes, that we should place people in limbo, that we shouldn't have permanent refugee status. He can also argue, if he wishes, we should push people off to far-flung Pacific islands and we should have children under detention. He can make that argument as a small 'l' liberal if he wishes.
We don't think that works, but we have adopted a prudent, sensible approach. Now, he can, like his colleagues, politicise this issue, play dog whistle politics if he wishes, but we'll just get on with the job of treating people in accordance with their rights, but doing it prudently and appropriately, and ensuring that we have all the information available to us as we process them -
KELLY:
Okay.
BOWEN:
- by way of this suspension.
KELLY:
Okay. Let's move onto another issue that the Government's also moved on to try and get off the agenda for a while, and that's the Building the Education Revolution. The Minister has pushed that off to an investigation, a taskforce.
Chris Pyne, we've had some response to the interview that you did with Geraldine Doogue on Breakfast yesterday, where you said that as much as half of the $16 billion could have been wasted. You said $8 billion of value for $16 billion of spending. Some listeners are wondering where you get that figure, how you come up with that.
PYNE:
Well, we would like to actually, we'd actually like to know the figure exactly and that's why we are concerned. That's why we are concerned that the Auditor-General's inquiry is not inquiring into value for money. We're concerned that this taskforce is not inquiring into value for money. The NSW audits are not looking at value for money. Where we get that figure from, though, is that in almost every example we've seen the inflated price is at least 50 to 100 per cent. For example, the Berridale Primary School went from $285,000 to $908,000.
KELLY:
So you've extrapolated from a few examples?
PYNE:
We have to because the Government won't give anybody any figures. It's like Chris Bowen's claims this morning about all these documents saying the Hazaras are apparently living on a beach in Afghanistan and enjoying themselves, an inland beach obviously. Where are the documents? Why doesn't the Government give us the figures about how much money's been wasted?
KELLY:
Okay. We're in a bit of a timing jam now, because Christopher Pyne is supposed to get the last word for this week but I'm going to have to give him two in a row for next time.
Chris Bowen, just an answer to that briefly, Chris?
BOWEN:
Well, of course there are 24,000 projects across the country in the BER, Fran, and if even every example that Christopher Pyne has raised, and The Australian newspaper have raised, if every example was true - which I don't accept because clearly some of them have been shown, proven to be untrue - then that would be less than one per cent of the projects.
PYNE:
So it's going really well?
BOWEN:
And Christopher, you couldn't even name one problem in your electorate.
PYNE:
So it's going really well?
KELLY:
Can you name one problem in your electorate?
PYNE:
I'll tell you what, I can name three schools but they are too intimidated in allowing their names to be put forward because of the bullying that's gone on from state education departments in New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia. And I'm not, as a local member, going to damage those schools or those principals.
BOWEN:
He cannot name one school.
PYNE:
And so you think that I should damage the schools, do you, Chris Bowen, as a local Member of Parliament?
BOWEN:
I was talking to a local principal in my electorate yesterday who was raving about the BER -
KELLY:
Okay.
BOWEN:
- and what a boost -
PYNE:
Yes, there's no problems with it at all, are there?
BOWEN:
If you look at the vast majority, the vast majority of principals and P and Cs across the country, they all tell you the same thing.
KELLY:
Okay. Now we've got to leave it there, Chris Bowen, we're out of time.
PYNE:
Blah, blah, blah.
KELLY:
Chris Bowen and Christopher Pyne, thank you very much for joining us on Polls Apart.
BOWEN:
Good on you.