SUBJECTS: Prime Minister Julia Gillard, Lindsay Tanner, economic management
LEIGH SALES:
It's been such a slow news week I'm not quite sure how we'll fill the time with our guests tonight, but let's try to struggle through with the Shadow Minister for Immigration, Scott Morrison; he's in Canberra. And with me in the Sydney studio is Chris Bowen; he's currently the current Minister for Financial Services, but with a reshuffle likely in the next few days, who knows?
Great to have you both with us.
CHRIS BOWEN:
Thanks, Leigh. Nice to be with you.
SCOTT MORRISON:
Hi, Leigh. Hi, Chris.
CHRIS BOWEN:
G'day, Scott.
SALES:
Scott Morrison, everyone saw Julia Gillard mouth the words 'game on' to Tony Abbott as she entered Question Time yesterday. Has Tony Abbott's job become much harder with this shift by Labor?
MORRISON:
Well, what we've seen this week is no change in policy; a change of leader certainly, but no change in policy. What we've seen this week is a process undertaken by the Labor Party to try and fix what they think is the problem, which is their message and their messenger, but the problem is the policy. And so as long as those policies remain the same, then the Coalition's task remains the same and that is to see that those policies are changed at the next election by changing the government, and that's our very clear urging to voters.
SALES:
Chris Bowen, this message: different leader, same dud policies, is clearly going to be getting a hammering now right up until the election. How is Labor going to counter that?
BOWEN:
Well, Leigh, every Prime Minister puts their own stamp on the Government. That's why governments are named after Prime Ministers - the Howard Government, the Rudd Government and the Gillard Government. Julia comes to the office with a particular focus, with a particular background and she'll be putting her own stamp on this government, and that will be through policy, that will ...
SALES:
So you'll be drawing a line under the Rudd era?
BOWEN:
Well we'll be building on some of our achievements during Kevin's Prime Ministership. They are many. But we got the message loud and clear from the Australian people that they wanted us to build on those achievements, particularly getting Australia through the Global Financial Crisis; wanted a renewed emphasis on basic issues like cost of living, working families, and reward for hard work. That was the message we were getting that they wanted a renewed and different focus on those things. The party took the decision the best way for that change of focus was a fresh approach in the leadership.
SALES:
Prime Minister Gillard said yesterday that the Labor Government had lost its way. How did that happen?
BOWEN:
Well, as I say, I think the Australian people gave us a tick for economic management, getting through the Global Financial Crisis, but then said we want to see the second term agenda. We want to see a renewed focus on what's really important to us, which is our cost of living and our future.
SALES:
But how did that explain how the Government lost its way?
BOWEN:
Well I think that the Australian people have asked us for a renewed focus on those things and that's what Julia was talking about when she said we'd lost our way. We'd lost perhaps some of the emphasis on those things and we're committed to returning to that, and also building on the success of doing those things: building on the success of the biggest increase in the aged pension for 100 years, for example building on the success of the major reform to health and the 1,000 new nurses we've trained. Building on the success of the trade training centres and taking that to a new level.
SALES:
Scott Morrison was there a little bit of envy in the Coalition yesterday looking at Julia Gillard and thinking, 'Well if only Peter Costello had had the courage to do that before the last election'?
MORRISON:
No, none of that was in our minds. And I think the question you've just asked, Leigh, is the key question: where does this government think it lost its way and why won't they say where it lost its way?
I mean, this 'lost its way' is a manufactured focus group line along with 'getting things back on track', but they haven't actually said where they - do they think they lost their way on border protection? On the home insulation program? The BER program? This is where people have concerns with this government over policy, but yet the Prime Minister today and yesterday said nothing about changing policy on border protection, has said nothing about changing policy on the BER or the home insulation.
So, my question to Chris is: where have you lost your way and why won't the Prime Minister say where she's lost the way rather than just parroting this focus group line out there to try and mollify people as opposed to give them real hope which is that you'll change your policies in these key areas?
SALES:
Chris Bowen?
BOWEN:
Well, as I said, Leigh, Julia Gillard will have her own emphasis as the new Prime Minister. That emphasis will be on support for working families on the basic issues.
SALES:
Does that mean change, though? Because under Kevin Rudd we heard the phrase 'working families' pretty often.
BOWEN:
Well it means a different focus, it means a fresh approach.
SALES:
Does that mean a change, though?
BOWEN:
Well it will mean changed policies, yes, but it also ...
MORRISON:
What? What's going change?
BOWEN:
Well, Scott, Leigh asks the questions around here, Scott, and I'm answering these questions.
MORRISON:
Well, I'm interested to know. You've challenged a leader, the first time a leader of a government has been changed in their first term, which is the most historic event that we've seen in a very, very long time; probably the most significant we've seen since the Dismissal. And this is all happened for a reason that has not yet been explained to the Australian people other than people getting jittery over polls and union bosses and faction leaders turning up and knocking on Kevin Rudd's door. Why did the Government change their leader? What policies are they going to change?
SALES:
Chris Bowen, let me put to you something that the former Labor leader Mark Latham said today. Which is that he thinks in part the leader was changed because modern Labor is obsessed with polls.
BOWEN:
No, I reject that, and I think Mark is frankly out of touch with what's happening in Caucus. The Caucus does very much stay in touch with its constituency, as you would expect - that's our job: to be in touch with what people are thinking on the street and what messages we're getting from people on the street. And part of that is, yes, you do research and you look at that.
But you're not driven by it. It's a useful guide to what the Australian people are thinking, as well as what people are saying to you in your constituencies and when you're visiting other people's constituencies and you take all that on board. And, yes, we were getting feedback from the Australian people that they wanted to see some changes, they wanted to see a different approach.
They gave us a tick for some things, but also felt we were falling short on other things. And that was the feedback that the Caucus had, and Caucus took the view, 'If that's the feedback that we're getting from the Australian people, the appropriate thing to do is to listen that and change our focus and change our leader'.
SALES:
Scott Morrison, let me put to it you, rightly or wrongly, Labor says that Tony Abbott has an image problem among women. What calculations will he have to make in dealing now with a woman as his chief opponent?
MORRISON:
Well, again, Leigh, this isn't about personalities. I think the Australian people are looking past that. And this is about policies. We've got a great, big tax which this government has still got in place and we've got a great, big tax where the revenues are still in the budget and the spending is still in the budget. I mean, Chris just talked then about feedback that he was getting from his electorate.
Now he'll know full well that the feedback that they got in the seat of Penrith at a state level and from the seat of Lindsay is that the Australian people, at least in that electorate, are fed up with this government's border protection policies. Now, that's what they're getting feedback on, and still we're not getting the answers about what they're going to change.
SALES:
But are you telling me that the personalities of Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott are irrelevant?
MORRISON:
No, what I'm telling you is that the focus and obsession over the course of this week has all been about policies on the - sorry, on personalities on behalf of the Labor Party. That's what's driven them over this change; not policy.
They're not going to change a thing. I mean, Julia Gillard was part of every single decision that this government made. She was in there root and branch in every single decision and all of a sudden now they're trying to make out as they did with Morris Iemma and the other premiers that followed that this is all going to change. But what we're seeing is what happened in NSW in absolute fast forward here in Canberra.
And so, the Prime Minister - the former Prime Minister, I should say, was quite right when he looked allegedly at Mark Arbib in the Caucus and said, 'I don't want to see this government go down the NSW path'. Well, I'm sorry, Kevin: we're down that path and the NSW people know where it finishes.
SALES:
Let me bring this up with you, Chris Bowen, because this sort of message is something we've been hearing a lot of as well about factions and whatnot. Was the monumental move that Labor took this week something that grew from within the parliamentary party, or was it imposed by the Labor machine in Sussex Street?
BOWEN:
Absolutely the Parliamentary Party. And, Leigh, if you get into Parliament, and I would say this is the same with the Liberal Party: if you get into Parliament, you've shown a certain determination and you've shown a certain level of being headstrong. And nobody tells you what to do. And the idea that MPs would, you know, get a phone call from somebody else and saying, 'There's going to be a leadership challenge and this is how you're voting'. is ludicrous. That doesn't happen.
SALES:
Paul Howes, the AWU secretary, came on Lateline to say that his members had withdrawn their support from Kevin Rudd. He's not a member of the elected party.
BOWEN:
Yeah, but he didn't give a direction. He doesn't ring up members of Parliament and give directions. Certainly people can get feedback from all sorts of people.
SALES:
So what actually happens then?
BOWEN:
Well what happens is people take soundings and say, 'Look, if there's a ballot, how would you vote?', and people give their feedback. And that was the case in the last leadership change from Kim Beazley to Kevin Rudd, and it was the case in this leadership change. The idea that somehow three or four people can make a decision and give instructions to the rest just isn't how the modern Labor Party works.
SALES:
Scott Morrison, you've been chuckling away. You're obviously not persuaded?
MORRISON:
I have. No, I'm - look, I saw Paul Howes on Lateline last night. He'd said just before he'd come on air that he'd spoken to Julia Gillard. I mean, when you look at what was done with Bernie Riordan and all those in NSW and John Robertson before he was in the Parliament; I mean, honestly, no-one believes that, Chris, and you can say that literally until dawn, but the influence of the union movement in these decisions and their influence over the factions is well-known and we saw that come back to Canberra in force this week.
SALES:
But, Scott Morrison, I wonder do you think that the message about factions and factional influence is something that people are going to be sitting around their barbeques on Saturday night saying, 'Oh, gee, I'm really worried about the factional influence on Labor. Guess I better vote for Tony Abbott'?
MORRISON:
Well it's more than the factions; it was the union bosses, and you had a union boss on your program last night saying how he wasn't going to put up - he wasn't going to put up without a change of leadership and he was backing that and he was part of the plan. Now, last time I looked, Paul Howes wasn't an elected Member of Parliament, and here he was deciding the fate of who should run the country from outside of this Parliament. And I thought that was a very grubby exercise and I don't think it did him any favours, his union any favours and their credibility.
SALES:
Let's go back to the issue of gender that I raised before. Chris Bowen, do you think that the Prime Minister's gender makes up part of her electoral appeal?
BOWEN:
Well it's part of who she is, and I don't think that she particularly regards herself as a female prime minister. She regards herself as a prime minister who happens to be the first female prime minister. But it's part of history and some people will be of course delighted with the fact we have a first female prime minister and will want to keep her there. But it's much - she is much, much more than a female prime minister. She'll be a very good prime minister who happens to be female.
SALES:
Scott Morrison, let me bring you back to that point again which you didn't really answer before, which is has the Coalition had to make some different calculations about the way you might deal with a challenge from Julia Gillard versus Kevin Rudd?
MORRISON:
No. I mean, our focus, as I said before, is on the policies. It's the policies that is the reason this government is a bad government. It is the policies that are the reason we have a $40 billion deficit and we're going to over $90 billion worth of debt, borrowing $100 million a day, $700 million a week. It's the reason we've had 140 boats arrive. Their policies have produced these outcomes. These policies aren't changing under Julia Gillard.
SALES:
Chris Bowen, development that's been a little bit overshadowed this week is Lindsay Tanner announcing that he intends to depart. How significant a blow is that to the party?
BOWEN:
Well Lindsay's a loss. He's a very considerable talent. I've worked closely with Lindsay as members of the Expenditure Review Committee of the Cabinet.
SALES:
Would you like to take his job as Finance Minister?
BOWEN:
Oh, that's entirely a matter for Julia and Lindsay's ...
SALES:
But, would you like it though?
BOWEN:
Well, I'll do whatever the Prime Minister asks me to. Whatever job she wants me to do, I'll do. But I'd just like to take a minute out to pay tribute to Lindsay ...
SALES:
Hopefully not a full minute. We don't have that much time. But a brief tribute to Lindsay.
BOWEN:
Well I would like to say that Lindsay's been a very good contributor. When he got up in the Parliament and said his two daughters need him more - well, his four kids, but particularly his two young daughters needs him more than the country needs him, that's something I could relate to and it was a very personal moment and ...
SALES:
You're not about to say you're going, are you?
BOWEN:
No, no, no, not at all, but it's something I think we all could relate to - people in Parliament…
MORRISON:
True.
BOWEN:
…and he deserves our best wishes because he has been a great contributor to the Government.
SALES:
Scott Morrison, let's quickly whip over to the super-profits tax. If Julia Gillard does do a deal with the mining companies over this, isn't that going to leave the Coalition well out on a limb?
MORRISON:
No. Well, what hasn't changed is the reason they've brought in this tax. The reason they've brought in this tax is because their spending is out of control. And the message that has gone out to the Australian people - as Labor keeps spending - the only way they know how to manage the government is to keep taxing. And so it's the spending that's the problem here from the Government. And the tax ...
SALES:
Yes, but that doesn't really relate to the question, which is if they make a deal with the mining companies successfully, where does that leave you?
MORRISON:
Well it leaves us opposed to a tax that has been brought in because of a government's addictions to spending.
SALES:
But will you be opposing it on the behalf of if the mining companies have then agreed to it?
MORRISON:
Well I think that's a very hypothetical situation you've raised. I mean, let's see what happens. All we've seen happen at is moment is some new-fashioned words come out from the new prime minister talking about negotiations. Now, the money is still in the budget. The spending is still in the budget. And when those two things no longer exist, then maybe that's a conversation we can have. But right now this government is spending and taxing.
SALES:
Chris Bowen, does Labor still believe that it will be back in surplus in 2012-2013?
BOWEN:
Absolutely. Our surplus projections stand…
SALES:
How can you be so confident of that, though, when this super-profits tax issue is unresolved?
BOWEN:
Because - and Scott wells knows this; he was just engaging in some pretty basic sophistry. All the revenue from the resource super-profits tax is devoted to particular spending initiatives. None of it goes to - are going into surplus.
The surplus is based on our spending rules, limiting spending growth to two per cent, and the growth and strength of the economy, which stands - which is in a good part due to our stimulus and our economic management through the Global Financial Crisis, because we said the way to ensure the long-term sustainability of the budget is to stimulate the economy now, and frankly, we were right.
SALES:
Scott Morrison, let me finish with you. I just want to ask you to clear up something for us. Did Tony Abbott tell the party room this week that a famous victory was within its grasp?
MORRISON:
Well, look, it was earlier in the week, but what I remember is this: Tony made it very clear, whatever words he actually used that we had a long way to go and we were the underdogs in this election. And that's the message he gave us.
SALES:
Were the words 'famous victory' used, because there does seem to be some confusion around that?
MORRISON:
Well, look, I don't take notes on party room meetings, as I said on the doors earlier this week.
SALES:
What do you recall?
MORRISON:
And, look, I don't recall those sort of phrases. What I recall is the message that Tony gave us, and that was that this election certainly was winnable, but it was also losable. Every election is like that. That, you know, we have the Everest challenge ahead of us. And I've said many times: we may have left base camp, but Everest is still ahead of us.
SALES:
Scott Morrison, Chris Bowen, it's been a huge week. You both are probably exhausted. Thank you very much for making time to come in and speak to us. See you again soon.
BOWEN:
Thanks, Leigh. Look forward to it.
MORRISON:
Thanks, Leigh. Thanks, Chris.