SUBJECTS: Government processing of asylum claims, Australia's population.
LEIGH SALES:
The Government has announced it's suspending the processing of new asylum claims from Sri Lanka and Afghanistan. So is it, as the Government puts it, a strong message or is it election year politics, as the Opposition would have it?
I'm joined tonight from Adelaide by the Manager of Opposition Business and Shadow Education Minister, Christopher Pyne, and in Sydney by the Minister for Financial Services, Superannuation and Human Services, Chris Bowen.
Welcome to both of you.
CHRIS BOWEN:
Thanks, Leigh.
CHRISTOPHER PYNE:
Good evening, Leigh. Good evening, Chris.
BOWEN:
Good evening, Christopher.
SALES:
Chris Bowen, should Australians gauge the effectiveness of your new policy by a reduction in boat arrivals?
BOWEN:
What we're doing, what we've announced today, are measures to ensure our policy settings in relation to both of those nations, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka, are appropriate. We have seen positive signs in Sri Lanka and Afghanistan of some improvement. In Sri Lanka, we've seen this week the first parliamentary elections in a long, long time. Of the 300,000 people who've been displaced, about 200,000 appear to have been returned or returned to safety to some degree.
In Afghanistan, we are seeing, again, some improvement. The Hazaras, who predominate in the number of refugees who come to Australia, appear to have improved their situation in Afghanistan. Now it's appropriate, as the UNHCR have indicated, that they're reviewing the country status of each country - Sri Lanka and Afghanistan - that we suspend our processing of asylum applications for those periods of time - three months and six months - to consider that and to see whether that changes the situation in the coming months.
SALES:
Okay. I'll come back later to your assessment of the situation in Sri Lanka and Afghanistan. But first I just wanna get to the heart. So what is the goal of these changes you are making? Is the goal to reduce the number of boats coming to Australia?
BOWEN:
The goal is to ensure a proper policy in relation to each country.
SALES:
And what's the goal of that policy?
BOWEN:
And the goal is to ensure that people who are genuine refugees are processed accordingly and people who are not are returned. Now, we've taken the decision that the best way to do that is to suspend the processing of applications for those periods of time so we can assess the revised situations in Sri Lanka and Afghanistan.
SALES:
Okay. Christopher Pyne, what does the Coalition think of this policy?
PYNE:
Well, Leigh, what we've seen today is a very panicked reaction from a Government that is reeling from the number of boat arrivals, the number of new boats and the number of people that are arriving. This is an ineffective policy response which Chris Evans, the Minister for Immigration, admitted today would make no difference to the number of boats arriving, which Kevin Rudd tried to claim would slam the door shut on boats arriving and which Chris Bowen tonight in two questions from you has not been able to describe what the goal of these policy changes have been.
So the Government is at sixes and sevens about what it is exactly trying to achieve. We know that this change won't stop the boats because essentially it is simply delaying the processing of asylum seekers. It is an election fix designed to get them past the next election and process the asylum seekers after the next election. But the public won't be fooled by that.
SALES:
You say it's an ineffective policy response, but the Coalition's been talking for a long time about pull factors. You wanted the Government to address the policy here to send a strong message. Presumably this policy delivers what you wanted?
PYNE:
No, but, Leigh, this policy change won't do anything to the pull factors in Australia. It will simply delay the processing of asylum seeker arrivals. That's not going to stop the pull factors.
The pull factors are the fact that people who come to Australia can get permanent residency, even if they come by boat in an unauthorised way and the Government's announcement today won't make the slightest difference to the motivation.
SALES:
Okay. Let's ask Chris Bowen to respond to that. Is it just a case of delay, it doesn't affect the pull factors?
BOWEN:
Well, as the UNHCR have indicated and as we've said all along, by far the predominant factor in the world movement of refugees is the disruption in home countries, and in this case, Sri Lanka and Afghanistan. Now we're seeing some signs in Sri Lanka and Afghanistan that the situation has improved enough to lead one to the conclusion that less refugee applications would be granted, and therefore –
SALES:
Okay. Well, let me put to you your own Government advice on the Department of Foreign Affairs website regarding Sri Lanka: ‘While the conventional conflict has ended, there remains a high risk of politically motivated violence throughout the country. And on Afghanistan for Australians who are there: ‘If you are in Afghanistan, you should consider leaving.’ Now that's our own Government's assessment of the situation in those countries.
BOWEN:
The criteria for refugee status is that if you were to return to the home country you would be in serious danger of persecution. That's a very different matter to travel advisories for Australians. Now, as I say, Leigh, nobody is denying the situation in Sri Lanka and Afghanistan is still not serious.
Of course there's a serious situation in both of those nations. But it does appear to have improved to some degree and the potential to improve some more. So this is an appropriate, well considered, evidence based policy approach which is quite distinguishable from the kneejerk dog whistle politics that the Opposition's been engaged in.
SALES:
Well, if the situation in Afghanistan has improved so much, when are Australian troops coming home?
BOWEN:
Well, they're separate matters, Leigh. This is about Hazaras predominantly and the situation has been around the world that any, effectively, any Hazara leaving Afghanistan, almost automatically would be approved as a refugee in whatever nation they arrived. Now, the evidence that we're seeing through the various studies of Afghanistan, whether it be UNHCR, the United States State Department or elsewhere –
SALES:
Well the UNHCR hasn't released theirs yet.
BOWEN:
No, but that have said they’re reviewing it. And we're not pre-empting the results of that review. We are saying they're reviewing it, and the situation – there are some signs of the situation improving – so this is an appropriate policy response in response to those developments.
SALES:
Christopher Pyne, are you comfortable with somebody fleeing Afghanistan, particularly women given their treatment there, being detained in Australia for perhaps up to six months without processing?
PYNE:
Well, Leigh, what we're concerned about in the Coalition is that the people smugglers are able to sell a very attractive product overseas, which is permanent residency in Australia. And what we're seeing tonight on your program is a widening split in the Labor Party, where Chris Evans and Chris Bowen clearly don't support the tough rhetoric that Kevin Rudd has been engaging in today and are trying to downplay this policy change.
Chris Evans said it wouldn't stop the boats. Chris Bowen has made it perfectly clear tonight that he doesn't really believe this policy changes anything other than reflecting what he's trying to pretend is an improving security situation in Sri Lanka and Afghanistan, but he is running a mile from this policy.
On the other hand, Kevin Rudd was saying today this was slamming the door on people smuggling. Now, nothing could be further from the truth. As long as you can get permanent residency in Australia by coming here in an unauthorised way, then the sugar is still on the table for the people smugglers to sell and that product will still be sold.
And Chris Evans admitted that today, and the UNHCR representative in Jakarta has said today in the newspapers that the situation with asylum seekers is ‘out of control’, to use his words. It's out of control. People are jostling with each other to get to Australia. And this policy change today won't make the slightest difference.
SALES:
Chris Bowen, a response?
BOWEN:
Well, Leigh, just briefly in response to Chris' misinterpretation of events: we announced more than one thing today, of course. We also announced a significant stepping up of the actions against people smugglers themselves, in addition to our anti-people smuggling bill we have in the Parliament, in particular to, if you like, following the money trail that relates to people smugglers and authorising particularly tough action against those remitting money to people smugglers and a range of other matters in relation to cracking down on people smuggling, in addition to what we've announced.
So, I mean, Chris can't verbal me, Chris Evans or the Prime Minister or anybody else. We've announced a range of measures which have a range of impacts on this policy issue.
SALES:
Okay. On the asylum seeker side of it, just a couple of weeks ago, Chris Evans gave a speech at the Sydney Institute in which he explained at great length the dire situations facing people in Afghanistan and Sri Lanka causing them to flee. Now today he and you say circumstances have changed; what, in just two weeks?
BOWEN:
No, we're saying that there has been signs of improvement and there's potential for more improvement, so this is an appropriate, measured, evidence based approach. As I've said earlier and as has been said earlier by the other Ministers, the situation in these two nations remains serious.
Of course it does, and there remain real humanitarian issues in those two nations. But there are indications that the number of refugee applications that would be approved has the potential to be reduced because of the improvement. And therefore, the sensible thing to do is to enter into this policy space, to enter into this suspension and allow some time for consideration of those improvements.
SALES:
Christopher Pyne, Julia Gillard was on this program earlier in the week and she said that the Opposition's trying to pull an election slogan from 2001 and run it again. Do you think that the asylum seekers issue has the same electoral potency now that it did just after 9/11?
PYNE:
Look, I think the Australian public are very well aware that the Government changed the rules in August 2008, and between 2002 and 2007 there were hardly any boat arrivals and hardly any unauthorised asylum seekers trying to get to Australia.
And since August 2008 there've been about 110 boats and almost 5,000 new arrivals by, in an unauthorised way. Today the Government, in full panic mode, is trying to pretend that it has a solution to that problem. What it really is seeking is to stop headlines in the papers, not actually to stop boats.
The boats will continue to arrive as long as there is the attraction and the lure the Australian Government have created, which is permanent residency. In terms of the electoral impact –
SALES:
What I'm asking, though, is if the Coalition is hoping for a rerun of the 2001 election?
PYNE:
Look, every election is completely different, Leigh, and this election will be about things like rising interest rates, the cost of living and of course the Government's incompetence, not just in the area of protecting our borders, but also with respect to not being able to put insulation in people's roofs and not being able to stop rip-offs in the building of school halls.
Now, the public are not stupid. The public know that for five or six years, there were virtually no arrivals and in 2008 to 2010, there's been a surge in arrivals because our borders are not as well protected as they were under the Howard Government.
Now, how they choose to vote on that matter will be one of the very important measures along with interest rates, along with cost of living, how they choose to place their vote. But I would've thought it would be, it is a potent electoral issue for Labor that they have not been able to protect our borders and the Australian public expect a Government to do that as a minimum.
Chris Bowen, let me ask you to respond to the suggestion that this announcement today is less about the circumstances in those countries than it is about Labor facing an election this year?
BOWEN:
Well, no, clearly not. This is, as I say, a well-considered policy step. Now, Christopher can wax lyrical about pull factors and TPVs. The fact of the matter is when the Howard Government introduced temporary protection visas the number of refugee asylum seekers in Australia went up, went up.
And he can't run away from that fact. Now he can prosecute the case if he wishes that TPVs should be reintroduced, that asylum seekers should be sent to far-flung Pacific islands, that children should be in detention. He can prosecute that case. We will concentrate on the policy merits and the factors that are causing this spike in refugees historically from Sri Lanka and Afghanistan and whether that situation has improved.
SALES:
Okay. I want to run through a couple of other things quickly before we're out of time. Let's turn to population policy. Chris Bowen, how is the Rudd Government going to plan properly for the nation's infrastructure without a specific population target?
BOWEN:
Well, what you need to do is accept the fact that there are demographic changes occurring in Australia, not only population increases, which are inevitable, but also the ageing of the population. You need to prepare for those changes.
SALES:
But don't you need a target to help you prepare for those changes?
BOWEN:
Well, and Tony Burke will be working through all those issues, but the important point to make is that we are preparing – whether it be health policy, infrastructure and how our cities work, or national savings rates – preparing across the board for those demographic changes, which are significant, and which other developed countries are grappling with as well.
I mean, the United States over the same period, 2010 to 2050, is preparing for an increase in the population of 132 million people. I mean, these are issues that countries across the world are grappling with and we're grappling with.
SALES:
Well, Christopher Pyne, let me put the same issue to you. Is the Coalition going to actually come up with a population target so that you can run your planning properly?
PYNE:
Well, Leigh, throughout my life, the Australian population has been increasing and it has not been a negative political issue for any Government. Suddenly, in the last fortnight, the Labor Party has managed to turn population policy into a negative political issue.
SALES:
That has nothing to do with the question that I just asked you.
PYNE:
No, no, I'll get to the question. Because they've chosen to decide, for a goal they chose to target 36 million people by 2050. The Rann Government in South Australia, of course, has a population target as well. So Labor does have targets in population, but they haven't explained to the Australian public about how they are going to build the infrastructure or provide the water in a state like South Australia which is extremely important to fulfil the needs of 36 million people.
SALES:
You get to my question anytime you like! What is the Coalition going to do? Is it going to have a population target?
PYNE:
The Coalition is gonna do what we've always done, and that is there will be incremental increases in population, both natural and also because of immigration. And we'll bring the Australian public with us on supporting an increase in the population over that time, and we will be a competent Government, unlike this Government, at delivering what needs to be put in place for that population.
There hasn't been a time in the Coalition's history where we've set a population target. It's the Labor Party that has set 36 million people as a population target. And when it turned negative for them, they've stepped away from that target. Now, what we're seeing here is a government that is a rabble.
SALES:
Let me give Chris Bowen a chance to respond to that.
BOWEN:
Look, I have to respond to those misstatements by Christopher. He knows full well that earlier this year the Government released the Treasury's intergenerational report which did not have a target, it had a projection. The only person who made that a target was Tony Abbott who, when that was released, said, ‘I do not have’ – Tony Abbott said – ’I do not have a problem with a population of 36 million’, was Tony Abbott's response. We had never said –
PYNE:
And Kevin Rudd said that he was for a big Australia.
BOWEN:
But he didn't say that 36 million was a target and you well know it, Christopher.
PYNE:
No, yes, he did. He endorsed it as a target.
BOWEN:
Tony Abbott endorsed as a target. Now, what we have to do –
PYNE:
No, I don't think so.
SALES:
Let's move on.
BOWEN:
... Is prepare for the inevitable and desirable changes in demographics, and that is partly ageing and partly an increase in population.
SALES:
Okay. We'll have to leave it there. Christopher Pyne, Chris Bowen, thank you very much for coming in tonight.
BOWEN:
Great pleasure.
PYNE:
Pleasure. Thank you very much, Leigh.