SUBJECTS: Home Insulation Program, Barnaby Joyce.
TONY JONES:
Well, the Government is fighting off accusations of incompetence and dangerous practices over the implementation of its Home Insulation Program.
Rejuvenated by a new leader and buoyed by recent opinion polls, the Opposition is now scenting blood and calling for the resignation of the Minister responsible, Peter Garrett.
Mr Garrett isn't available to put his case tonight but the Financial Services Minister, Chris Bowen, is and he joins us now from Canberra.
Thanks for being there.
CHRIS BOWEN:
Pleasure, Tony. Good evening.
JONES:
Now, you're a Cabinet Minister. Was the lethal nature of rushing this National Insulation Program through discussed at all by the Cabinet?
BOWEN:
Well Tony, we won't reveal Cabinet discussions but let me say this: Peter Garrett has behaved and conducted himself appropriately at every step of the way in this instance and he has been very unfairly targeted by the Opposition for political purposes. Peter Garrett has acted responsibly and carefully at every step and has acted as any Minister should or would, and calls for his resignation from the Opposition are very opportunistic.
JONES:
Let's go through it a bit. The first death of a worker installing foil insulation happened in Brisbane in October of last year. There were two more deaths of young workers in November doing these installations. A fourth death happened just last week. It's a lot of deaths over quite a long period of time. It must be a concern, not only to the Minister, but to the Government generally.
BOWEN:
Well, of course Tony, any death is a lot more than a concern, it's a tragedy and that is very keenly felt by all of us and all involved.
But let's underline some important basic points here. The installation of foil insulation meets the Australian Standard, met the Australian Standard and still meets the Australian Standard. And the condition of receiving a grant under the Insulation Program was that the insulation met the Australian Standard and that the Building Code was followed.
Now, issues were brought to the attention of the Minister and in November last year he banned the use of metal fasteners. Now it's become apparent since that some people were still using metal fasteners after they'd been banned so he took the decision to ban the use of foil insulation at all. Now, that means he has insisted now on a standard higher than the Australian Standard.
Now, that's appropriate, but I don't think anybody could say without the benefit of hindsight that a Minister should intervene and say, 'Well, the Australian Standard's not good enough; I'm going to impose a higher standard than what the Australian Standard imposes.' I don't think anybody can fairly and objectively make that allegation.
JONES:
Not even after three deaths?
BOWEN:
Well, as I say, the Minister acted in November last year to ban the use of metal fasteners. He acted on expert advice. It became apparent after that, that that was still happening, so he banned the use of foil insulation completely.
Now, he's acted, as I say, appropriately, responsibly. Peter Garrett is a very good Minister, a very empathetic man, and has dealt with these issues as any responsible Minister could or would, whereas the Opposition is just making opportunistic points out of these instances.
JONES:
We've just learned today the Minister was advised of the risk of rushing ahead with this program nearly a year ago. It was revealed tonight that State and Territory officials warned the Government in April of last year that the nationwide installation program was effectively unregulated - that's the quote: 'effectively unregulated' - and posed a risk to property and to lives. Now, that was in April last year.
After that, four lives were lost. So I'm asking you, do you still think that this program was effectively controlled and that the Minister acted on advice quickly enough?
BOWEN:
Well Tony, when the Minister received advice, he acted on it. Now, he disclosed the indication that we had from the electrical contractors in the Parliament today and he referred that for expert advice. When he received that expert advice, he acted on it.
He acted appropriately; he acted on expert advice; he convened the appropriate consultations with the industry and with the experts. That's what people would expect him to do; that's exactly what he did.
JONES:
Well, he didn't mention today in Parliament this advice that came from State and Territory officials warning the Government that the whole thing was effectively unregulated and posed a risk to life and to property. He didn't tell Parliament about that. I presume he'll have to tell Parliament about that tomorrow.
BOWEN:
Well, I'm sure he has and will disclose everything appropriately, as he's done today. But he has made a very full answer in the Parliament today about what he did, when, what expert advice he convened and what action he took. And as I say, Tony…
JONES:
Well, he made an answer today which turns out to be a partial answer because he didn't tell us about all the advice he evidently got and we're now learning about more advice.
And I go to this warning: that the program was effectively unregulated. Because all of those killed were young people working for contractors. Now, we've been told that none of them were union workers and there's serious questions over the training they got.
So is any of this in fact defensible?
BOWEN:
Well, the program is very defensible.
Peter Garrett has identified where there are shortcomings. He has acted to remedy them. He's remedied them on expert advice and he's remedied them as quickly as he could with the expert advice that he'd received.
He has been very clear. He has acknowledged there have been problems but when you're a Minister you're going to come across problems. What counts is how you respond, how you react, whether you fix them. That's what he's done.
JONES:
Let's not forget WorkChoices, one of the key issues that helped Labor get into Government. The campaign was largely about the potential exploitation of workers.
Now, this appears to happen on your watch: unregulated programs in which four people - young workers, none of whom are union members - die. I mean, is that a matter for some sort of shame within the union movement, and how is the union movement responding?
BOWEN:
Well, I haven't seen any comments from the union movement on this issue, the relevant union, so I couldn't tell you how the union movement is responding. I'm not a union official, I'm a Minister.
But what I can tell you is this…
JONES:
I can give you some indication, because the Queensland union movement is saying this was foreseeable and shouldn't have happened.
BOWEN:
Well, as I say Tony, the program guidelines were that insulation would be subsidised where it met the Australian Standards.
Now, the Opposition can now look back and say, 'Well, the Minister should have seen that the Australian Standard wasn't up to scratch'. Well, with the benefit of hindsight they may say that, but I challenge them, in all honesty and in all seriousness, to be able to say honestly to you or to anybody else, with the evidence before them that Peter Garrett has before him, at the appropriate time, that they would have done anything differently.
If they honestly answered you, they would say, 'No, we wouldn't have done anything differently than Peter Garrett'.
JONES:
But there was plenty of evidence of fly by night operators, contractors who were picking up people from pubs and off the street, Irish backpackers as it goes anecdotally.
Let's look at these actual workers who died. In October last year, a 25-year-old installer was electrocuted in Brisbane. November last year, a 16-year-old was electrocuted in a roof in Queensland. Days later, a 19-year-old dies of heat exhaustion in a roof in Sydney.
Now, shouldn't those deaths - three deaths of very young workers, none of them union members, working in an unregulated fashion, apparently without proper training, all die - shouldn't that have triggered a complete suspension, at that time, of this whole program until the contractors were investigated?
BOWEN:
No, I don't accept that, Tony. We've had a million houses insulated under this program across the country. Now, as I understand it, the requirements, the accreditation to be able to install insulation under this program are quite strong.
And where shortcomings have been drawn to the Minister's attention, he's acted, as I say. As I recall, it was 1 November last year that he banned the use of metal fasteners. He has tightened the program as required.
Now, of course these deaths are a tragedy. Of course they are, they are very keenly felt. But as I say, anybody making criticisms of Peter Garrett needs to honestly be able to say, with the information he had before him at each turn, they would have done something differently. And I think if they are honest with you, they would say no.
JONES:
Just last week, 4 February, another 25-year-old installer is electrocuted in northern Queensland.
Now, if this were a series of industrial accidents happening in a factory, the bosses of that factory would be hauled over the coals by the union movement. They would be accused of negligence. Now, this is not happening at the moment from the union movement but it may once people reflect upon it.
Are you concerned that those kind of charged will be levelled at the foot of the man responsible for the entire program - under the Westminster system, the Minister?
BOWEN:
Well Tony, I am sure that in each occasion there would be an appropriate investigation of those tragic deaths and appropriate recommendations arising out of those. And if there was negligence on behalf of anybody in terms of the workplace, then the appropriate recommendations would be made.
But all I can do is point out, Tony, that on the evidence he had before him he acted appropriately. That is the test for a Minister: if with all the knowledge and the information that you have, did you seek the appropriate expert advice, did you refer it to the appropriate authorities, and did you act on that advice? I think Peter Garrett passes that test.
JONES:
Here is the picture of the scheme at the moment: young workers, four of them, dead, a number of others injured, virtually unregulated fly by night contractors operating under the radar, apparently. And now 37,000 homes have to be inspected because as many as 1,000 of them may have fatal death traps in their roofs.
I have to ask you the question, was this scheme appropriately and competently managed?
BOWEN:
Well, as I say, problems have been identified in the scheme and when problems are identified in any big scheme where you're insulating a million homes across the country, it's perhaps unsurprising that you're going to find problems.
What counts is how you deal with them. What counts is how…
JONES:
I have to say, should it be unsurprising to the minister if state and territory officials warned of those problems back in April? It should have been unsurprising but apparently it wasn't.
BOWEN:
Well, I haven't seen - you're referring to that advice - I haven't seen that advice but…
JONES:
It was reported this evening on The 7.30 Report.
BOWEN:
Well, the Minister, I am sure, will outline, he has outlined how he responded to the advice that he received on each occasion and he responded to it by referring it to the appropriate experts, and taking the appropriate advice, and making changes to the program when appropriate.
JONES:
It's obvious that Peter Garrett's in for another couple of days in Parliament.
What does he have to do now? What does he have to prove to survive this week as Environment Minister?
BOWEN:
Well look, there's no doubt, as you said in your opening remarks, the Opposition is baying for blood. They see a political opportunity here. If they choose to play politics with this, that is their right as the Opposition in Australia.
The job of Peter Garrett is to be fully disclosing of what action he's taken and what action he proposes to take, and that's what he's done.
JONES:
Okay, it's true - I was going to say, it's true this is not your portfolio, so theoretically you shouldn't have to talk about it - but then again, the stimulus package is owned by every Minister and by every member of the Labor Party, effectively, and certainly all the backbenchers have had to go out and support it.
How hard do you think it's going to be for all of you to go out and support Peter Garrett day after day as more revelations unfold about this scheme?
BOWEN:
Well, we'll continue to call it as we see it and that means saying that Peter Garrett responded to the evidence he had before him.
I have no trouble coming on here tonight and defending Peter Garrett. He is a very good minister, an empathetic man, a man who treats his job with great seriousness and with great passion. He's a very hardworking Minister and he takes his role very seriously and frankly.
It's a pleasure to be able to defend him against opportunistic attacks.
JONES:
Okay, I said today that there's problems on both sides of politics.
The Opposition Finance Spokesman, Barnaby Joyce, says Australia may not be able to repay its debt. Now Tony Abbott is defending him. The Shadow Treasurer says there's no doubt Australia can pay its debts.
What's going on here?
BOWEN:
Well, what we're seeing is a pattern of erratic and dangerous behaviour from Barnaby Joyce.
This is now, Tony, not a weekly occurrence; it's a daily occurrence: Barnaby Joyce saying something which shows, one, a fundamental lack of understanding of basic economics and, two, shows what a dangerous proposition he would be as Finance Minister, whether it's breaking up Australia's banks or anti-foreign investment comments or now saying that Australia could be at risk of defaulting on sovereign debt.
Now, when Barnaby Joyce, as Shadow Finance Minister, makes those statements it's a concern. It shows what a danger he would be and there is no doubt, as a number of business commentators have said today, it's being noticed overseas.
But if he were to be the Finance Minister and made those statements, Australia's financial markets would have gone into meltdown. The Australian economy would be in a very different position.
So people need to consider and will consider what would it be like with Barnaby Joyce as Finance Minister. If there was another crisis in this country like there was after the collapse of Lehman Brothers, how would we go in those 72 hours after the collapse of Lehman Brothers if Barnaby Joyce were in the chair as Finance Minister? What sort of a risk would that present?
And what does it say about Tony Abbott's judgment that he thought it was appropriate to place in the role of the second most senior economic spokesperson in the Opposition a man with such a lack of fundamental understanding of economics, and with such an erratic and dangerous approach.
If Tony Abbott can get such a major appointment wrong, what else will he get wrong if he became Prime Minister of Australia?
JONES:
You say it's being noticed overseas. There's no evidence that it's having any effect on confidence in Australia's economy, is there?
BOWEN:
Well, a number of business commentators pointed out today that any commentator - any senior economic political commentator - is noticed overseas. And when it comes to Australia's reputation, certainty is key and clarity is key.
And people look at Barnaby Joyce from overseas, who might not be experts in the Australian political landscape, might not know exactly where he fits in, but thinks, 'Well, if the alternative Finance Minister is saying these sorts of things, that's a concern'.
Now, I grant you, it is a manageable concern while he's Shadow Finance Minister. I accept that. If he were to be Finance Minister, it would not be a manageable concern in any form.
JONES:
I think I recall a famous Treasurer, Paul Keating, referring to Australia as a 'banana republic', and yet he went on to become Prime Minister.
BOWEN:
Well, a very different set of circumstances. Paul Keating was warning what would happen if there weren't major reforms in Australia and was talking about a very different thing.
He wasn't saying that Australia wouldn't be repaying its sovereign debt. Now, Australia, under this Government, recently the World Economic Forum rated Australia as number one in the world for the lowest risk of sovereign debt default.
I mean, but Barnaby Joyce, out there recklessly saying that we might default on our debt finishes off what is a trifecta of economic ignorance from the Opposition: Tony Abbott, who makes fundamental economic mistakes and says he finds economics boring; Joe Hockey, who sloppily misconstrues and misrepresents other people; and Barnaby Joyce, who is erratic and dangerous.
JONES:
We'll have to leave you there.
We thank you very much for coming in tonight, Chris Bowen, and hope to see you again during the course of the year. Thank you.
BOWEN:
Always a pleasure, Tony. Thank you.