SUBJECTS: Hearts & Minds, Labor Party reform, union relationship, the economy
LEIGH SALES:
Chris Bowen, I'll come to some of the economic issues that Kevin Rudd raised in his speech today a little later in the interview, but let's start with your book that's out this week. You write, "This book is an argument for a party which very clearly articulates a belief in the individual, in helping individuals grow to fulfil their aspirations." So it's a book about the Liberal Party, is it?
CHRIS BOWEN:
No, I actually make the point, Leigh, as you know, having read it, that the Labor Party has a claim to being the party of the individual because we believe in government action to ensure that every individual can grow to be everything they can be. And unless you have that government action then you get individuals, whether they be if in remote areas or disadvantaged suburbs, who don't get to be - grow to their full potential. So I make the point that you can claim to be a liberal party, but unless you believe in the sorts of things the Labor Party believes in, then you don't really care about the individual.
SALES:
Given Labor's hand-in-glove relationship with the union movement though, how can you argue that Labor's the party of the individual, not of the collective?
BOWEN:
Well I make the point again in the book, Leigh, in Hearts and Minds, that unions standing up for vulnerable people, giving people opportunities and that's what the Labor Party stands for as well. Now, I say some things about the relationship with the union movement of course and that's something that's a topic of current debate. But I do make the point that the conservative party in Australia, the big "L" Liberal Party doesn't really stand for every individual growing to their full capacity.
SALES:
Unions currently represent just 16 per cent of the Australian workforce. If the Labor Party wants to attract more members and be more reflective of society, which you say in the book that you do want to do, doesn't Labor need to severely curtail the influence of unions on the party?
BOWEN:
No, we need to build on unions. We need to build on our industrial heritage. We do want to be, we do need to be a party which is open and inclusive, welcoming of small business people, welcoming of students, welcoming of people who work in big business. We do need to do that, but we don't do that by cutting off our links with trade unions who spend every day, hardworking officials, trying to improve people's lives at the workplace. We build on those links. And I make some suggestions in the book over time how we can do that. But I don't accept the argument that Labor must cut its links to the unions. We must build on them. We must be a broad, open and inclusive party.
SALES:
For example, do you think that to be a member of the ALP you should have to be a member of a union?
BOWEN:
Well I deal with that in the book, Leigh. I make my suggestions clear. Now let's be ...
SALES:
And what are they? Just because not everyone watching will have read your book.
BOWEN:
I understand. Well let's just put this in context. I call for some reforms to the party, Leigh. I call for 50 per cent of the votes in electing the leader of the Labor Party to go to rank and file members. I'm pretty pleased with the impact that's had so far. Kevin Rudd has implemented that and it's a reform I very strongly support. And then I suggest some other changes. Now, these are changes that the Labor Party will deal with over time.
SALES:
Including that one I just mentioned. Sorry to interrupt.
BOWEN:
Yes. Obviously we're focused on policy and the election at the moment, but we do have to embrace organisational reform to grow, as do I think all political parties. And I do suggest in the book that we remove the requirement in the rules, which is usually not actually implemented, but is still in the rules, that if you are eligible to join a trade union then you join the trade union to be a member of the Labor Party. I do suggest moving away from that rule in the book. That's my contribution to the debate, which the Labor Party will have in the coming years.
SALES:
In the book you also write that in future, Labor should decline to serve in government with any other political party and that it should govern alone or not at all. Is that an admission that the past three years of minority government have been a failure for Labor?
BOWEN:
No, not at all and I deal with that head-on in the book and say this is not a criticism of the decision to go into alliance with the Greens, but it is a reflection of my views, having been considered, that the Labor Party when it puts a view to the Australian people and campaigns in an election campaign for office, that we should govern alone and that we should not enter into formal deals with other political parties.
SALES:
Well, the logical conclusion from what you say is that you think that three years ago an Abbott minority government would've been better for Australia than a Labor government reliant on the Greens.
BOWEN:
No, I completely reject that conclusion, Leigh. There's nothing in the book which could lead you to that conclusion, with respect.
SALES:
No, but you're saying it's better for Labor to govern alone or rather not at all.
BOWEN:
This is a book, a forward-looking book about the future, saying that we need to be clear about what we deliver, we need to be clear about what we stand for, we need a crisp explanation of Labor's beliefs and we should stand by those beliefs before and after election campaigns. It's a forward-looking book.
SALES:
But you can't divorce of course what's happened because that would've informed your views that this is how Labor should think about the future.
BOWEN:
Well, I think this term of office has been one where we've achieved a lot and we've achieved a lot by working with other political parties and independents. Of course we have. That's a statement of fact. And I think an Abbott government would've been a disaster in 2010 and it would be a disaster in 2013. Of course I think that. I believe that very strongly.
SALES:
So why do you think the Labor Party should never replicate it again?
BOWEN:
Well because I'm saying that the Labor Party – in my view – my contribution to the debate is that the Labor Party stands best by its policies and that we have a lot to offer with our policies and we shouldn't need the policies of the Greens. We believe in things that the Greens party fundamentally disagrees with and that we have a separate existence, and that in future we should govern alone.
SALES:
When you wrote your book that we've been talking about, you were on the backbench, and now you're the Treasurer of course, so there's ideas that have been ...
BOWEN:
Yes, there's a different context. Yes.
SALES:
Exactly. And there are ideas that have been floated that maybe you wouldn't float as Treasurer. But let me ask you just about one of them. You point out in the book that company tax, the rate of company tax is too high, that at 30 per cent it's about six per cent above the OECD average. As Treasurer, will you address that?
BOWEN:
Well these are the principles that I stand by in the book, that I put when I was on the backbench, and of course I stand by as Treasurer. I think we should have the ambition of lowering company tax. Now of course you need to do that in your fiscal environment and business people I've been speaking to as late as today have said to me, "We'd like you to work towards a company tax cut, but obviously we recognise that that's something that can't be afforded just right now". But it would be the approach that we would take that our ambition would be lower company tax rates over time because it does improve our international competitiveness.
SALES:
You're talking about tax reform. The Prime Minister today was talking about productivity improvements. You've had six years in government. How much time's enough?
BOWEN:
Reform is an ever-receding finishing line, Leigh. You've got to keep reforming if your economy's going to keep groping. You've got to keep up the reforms. Hawke and Keating didn't put their feet up on the desk in 1988 and say, "We've done five years of reform and we'll stop now". I mean, that's not how economies get transformed. It's not how economies grow.
We've responded to the Global Financial Crisis and now we are saying that we need to reposition the Australian economy to deal with the challenges, to deal with the transitions, to deal with the decline in our terms of trade, to deal with the end of the investment boom in mining. This is what Labor governments do. We manage transitions. We manage with the Australian economy so that we see that economic growth and we see those opportunities created for people so that they can turn their aspirations into reality.
That's Labor, that's what Labor does, that's what this Prime Minister and I will deliver as Treasurer in the coming period.
SALES:
Treasurer and author Chris Bowen, thank you very much.
BOWEN:
Thank you, Leigh.