Patricia Karvelas:
Shadow Housing Minister Andrew Bragg gave an address to the National Press Club today, and it had a lot in it. The centrepiece of the Coalition’s new housing policies is a demolishing of the National Construction Code from over 2,000 pages to 80.
In questions he rejected concerns that homes without energy efficiency standards would be unliveable.
[Excerpt]
Andrew Bragg:
It’s a house that won’t fall down, it’s secure, it won’t burn down, but it doesn’t have anything else in it, it’s a very simple house.
Tom Connell:
Would it even have an efficiency rating on it?
Bragg:
No, it’s just a basic amenity, so you know, you’ve got to have a window in a room, for example; it’s got to have that. It’s simple. Like, we are trying to – like everyone knows about Maslow’s hierarchy; we’re at Maslow’s hierarchy in Australia, right? We are in desperate need to build any kind of house we can get right now to house our population.
We also have been a great migrant nation for the past 250 years and we still want to be able to house new Australians. And I would say right now, Maslow’s hierarchy dictates to you you need to build more cheap housing just to get the thing moving, and if people want optional extras, that’s up to them.
[End of excerpt]
Karvelas:
Some reaction from the government. I want to bring In Housing Minister, Clare O’Neil. Clare O’Neil, welcome.
Clare O’Neil:
Thanks for having me on the show, PK.
Karvelas:
Eighty pages instead of 2,000. Is it a good idea? Are there just – it’s just too thick, the Building Code, isn’t it?
O’Neil:
Well, broadly, can I just say that the speech from Andrew Bragg today was a crazed, almost manic ideological fever dream that ranged from subjects such as repeated references to communism, the Morrison government madness, calling superannuation state‑sponsored corruption; it was genuinely unhinged.
Now I like Andrew Bragg, I think he’s a really good person, and he’s trying hard to reform a broken Liberal Party, but the fact that this is seen as housing policy by the Liberals, it genuinely scares me, and I increasingly feel in this debate that Labor is the only party that’s actually got a real answer to what’s going on for housing as a country.
Now let me come to your question about the Construction Code. We do have a Construction Code that’s too complex.
Karvelas:
Two-thousand pages is a joke.
O’Neil:
Yeah, absolutely, and that’s exactly why our government is in the middle of a diligent reform process of working with the sector to make this code better for building homes in our country, but the idea that we’re going to go to an 80‑page Construction Code, what Andrew Bragg is saying, to be really clear to Australians, is that we should scrap housing standards, his idea is if it can stand on its, you know, on 4 walls, his idea of building standards is that there’s a window in each bedroom – I mean are you kidding me?
There is no one serious in this debate who is saying that the answer to our housing problems as a country is to scrap housing standards. At the end of the day remember Australian consumers pay for that. If we create homes that don’t have heating and cooling, then Australians have to pay for that through energy prices. If we scrap standards about management of water in apartment buildings, what do you think that does to people who end up living in those homes?
It is a completely ridiculous idea. We’ve got to build more housing in this country, but we should demand quality homes for Australians.
Karvelas:
But his argument is that it will make it a lot cheaper to build homes if you really narrow it down to fundamentals, Maslow’s, as he said, just a roof over your head.
O’Neil:
Mm-hmm.
Karvelas:
Doesn’t he have at least intellectually a point about a house being just a framework rather than all the extra layers on it?
O’Neil:
I think the idea that the answer to Australia’s housing issues is to scrap housing standards is ridiculous, and that’s not being –
Karvelas:
You’re trying to do that too, aren’t you?
O’Neil:
No, no, no. No, we’re not going to scrap –
Karvelas:
Okay. When you – okay –
O’Neil:
– housing standards –
Karvelas:
– you’re going to have to get rid of some extra standards if you’re reducing the 2,000 pages, aren’t you?
O’Neil:
No, no. There is a lot in the Construction Code that is unnecessary complexity for builders. I mean just this document is more than 2,000 pages long. There’s no simple AI for a builder to use when they’re on a 7th floor of an apartment building trying to work out some of the constraints that they face in the Code.
The things and the standard that are in the Code are there for good reason. They’ve been built up over many years. This is about how we manage sewerage in buildings; it’s about how we manage water and condensation in people’s homes, so they don’t have black mould growing in their houses. These are not frivolous matters; they are critical health and safety matters for the country.
And I’d say to you again, the Construction Code is too long and too complex; that’s why our government’s doing this properly.
Karvelas:
Do you have a sort of how many pages you want to aim to get to?
O’Neil:
No. And to be honest with you, I think the focus on how many pages is in the Construction Code is a little bit sort of – it’s not the best metric of whether this is usable for builders around the country. We know that this is too convoluted and too complex and too difficult to navigate and we do want to solve those problems through the process we’re working through at the moment.
Karvelas:
But his fundamental thesis that it’s just too expensive to build homes in Australia is true, isn’t it?
O’Neil:
Yeah, it is too expensive to build housing in Australia, but again, PK, the answer to that problem is not to scrap housing standards that Australians rely on, so they get a good product. For most Australians, this is the most important investment that they’ll ever make in their life, and he is saying scrap all the standards, scrap energy efficiency, scrap some of those safety standards, which he will have to do to make the Code that size. None of it makes sense.
But, you know, we’re treating this like this is a real policy idea; it’s nothing of the sort. You know, before he even stood up at the Press Club today, his colleagues were out and about saying that the things that he was talking about there weren’t even agreed to by Shadow Cabinet.
Now I understand it’s really hard to be in Opposition, I’ve been through it too –
Karvelas:
On migration –
O’Neil:
I’ve never seen anything –
Karvelas:
– that’s what they were saying.
O’Neil:
– as chaotic and messy as this, PK, and people need to look at this. He basic stood up at the Press Club and said, ‘The Liberal Party stuffed up the country for 20 years and the answer to this is that you need to re‑elect us to government’.
I mean I think they’re going to have to come up with something better than that.
Karvelas:
He talked about 180,000 being the level at which he wants the immigration figure to be.
O’Neil:
Mm-hmm.
Karvelas:
Yeah, they’d have to make some significant cuts, but your government, your Cabinet has been looking at making cuts to immigration. You were previously the Minister –
O’Neil:
Yep.
Karvelas:
– so you understand the visas quite well.
O’Neil:
I do, I do, and it does –
Karvelas:
It does need to be cut, doesn’t it?
O’Neil:
Yeah. So, migration’s a piece of the puzzle when it comes to housing. I don’t think we should allow politicians to overstate the impact, but of course it’s relevant to the issue. And that’s why our government is bringing migration down. We’ve already brought migration down by 45 per cent, and there’s more to come.
But you talked about Andrew Bragg’s speech. Remember that those numbers that he was using in his speech today aren’t agreed numbers of the Liberal Party. I mean can you imagine a Labor government where someone goes out, just announces a bunch of things at the Press Club, and then all their colleagues go out the next day saying, ‘None of this has been agreed to?’ That’s a crazy mess that you’re asking me reasonable questions about, but how can I really respond, PK, when you’ve got 14 different positions in a Liberal Party Shadow Cabinet?
Karvelas:
Okay. I want to move to the Commonwealth Bank, which has revealed it’s seen home loan applications fall by 15 per cent. That’s worrying, isn’t it?
O’Neil:
Look, there’s a lot that goes on in the housing market, and you know, the biggest driver of what’s changing at the moment is interest rates, there’s a lot of other factors, but interest rates is the primary thing that’s shifting. And we, Treasury, the Reserve Bank, all the major banks tell us that house prices will return to growth in the medium term.
What I would say is the government’s made some pretty significant housing tax changes that are all about getting better opportunities for first home buyers, and that is exactly what we’re seeing.
In the life of our government, on average each and every year we’ve produced more first home buyers than any government in Australian history, and that’s only going to increase because of the tax changes. Treasury tells us that those tax changes will allow 75,000 Australian households that are stuck in rent traps today get into a home of their own, and that’s a really good thing for the country.
Karvelas:
Rents have been going up. Does that worry you?
O’Neil:
Look, I have a really long‑standing concern about renters in Australia. This is a third of our population, who –
Karvelas:
And it’s getting worse for them.
O’Neil:
– in many ways are bearing the brunt of what’s been a crisis that’s been building for 40 years, and we see it in lots of issues for renters, it’s housing insecurity that is truly terrible, we’ve got, you know, rents that are going up too fast, too frequently, and what they feel to be ever‑diminishing opportunities to get into home ownership.
That is why we have such a massive and comprehensive housing policy that’s about helping renters become first home buyers.
Karvelas:
But that’s not the only way; some people will always be renters, only rents are going up –
O’Neil:
Yeah, yeah.
Karvelas:
– so as you look at that, and that’s, you know, irrefutable, it’s happening, do you need to intervene more?
O’Neil:
Look, we are intervening in other ways, and let me just mention a couple of them. One of them is that million Australian households that are dependent on Commonwealth Rent Assistance. This is a subsidy that goes to the million kind of worst‑off homes in the country. We’ve increased that by 50 per cent since we’ve been in government. Because of the Prime Minister, he’s negotiated for improved rental rights for every single renter in the country, and of course, PK, again coming back to those home ownership numbers, 260,000 through the 5 per cent deposit program, another 75,000, and for the first time a fairer housing market for Australia.
So there’s a lot of work that’s been done to improve that situation, but I see we’ve got a lot more to do.
Karvelas:
Yesterday the Reserve Bank Governor said that we’re seeing the resources that you need, like for builders and others – I think there’s a division, you’re going to have to go – but basically be put into the data centres rather than residential properties. I’m sure you clocked that –
O’Neil:
Mm-hmm.
Karvelas:
– ‘cause it’s worrying, isn’t it, if data centres are taking workers that are meant to build our houses.
O’Neil:
Yeah. Look, I’m watching this really closely, and our government is doing something that no other country in the world has done, which is set standards to require data centre builders to train employees for the country.
So that’s something that Andrew Charlton is leading at the moment. It is an issue that we need to keep a track of because we’ve got an enduring issue with construction workers in Australia.
But I will just leave you with one thing. We’ve seen, I think, 72,000 Australians train in construction through free TAFE. A lot of work to do there, but we’re really impressed with the number of young people who are choosing this fantastic profession for their working life.
Karvelas:
I will let you live your best democratic life and run to the parliament. Thank you.
O’Neil:
This is the second time this has happened in recent weeks.
Karvelas:
Well, yeah, we got a bit longer this time though. Thank you.
O’Neil:
Thank you, PK. Thanks.
Karvelas:
That was the Housing Minister, Clare O’Neil, responding to the Shadow Housing Minister’s Press Club address, talking about the housing market’s downturn.